Tangent 21 - Kill the Killer?

Posted by
Maffrew

Posted on
19:58
Jan 13 2004

Kill the Killer?

This thread is pretty much a reply to the Harold Shipman thread.

So... do you think we should kill killers? Capital punishment was abolished in 1965 (made permanent in 1969) and the last execution was in 1964. The ending of execution as a means of punishment was, as far as i know, more a movement from the top than the bottom. The majority of people would support the reintroduction of capital punishment, hence why the government would never have a referrendum on the subject.

So, should we kill killers? I'd have to answer a resounding no.

The main argument for execution that comes from most people is the eye for an eye one and to me, that's a pretty naff argument. 'They did it, so we should do it to him' is the sort of thing i'd expect a young child to say, not a fully grown, educated adult.

I don't see taking the life of a criminal as intrisinctly wrong, it's not embedded in my consciousness, but i think as a society we have created a set of morals and they would dictate to me that taking the life of a criminal just because he's done something wrong is, well, wrong. It also serves no real purpose but to make angry people feel better about themselves and that is not a good reason to take a life, even the life of someone who has taken another.

To anyone that would say the families that have suffered deserve justice and a sense that something has been done, i would say that just knowing the guilty party has been caught should be enough. Taking the life of a killer does not bring back whoever was killed and i would hedge a bet as to say it doesn't really make the families involved feel any better.

The only real advantage i can see to execution is that it would save money. Killing people is a lot cheaper than keeping them in prison for the rest of their life. However, i don't think monetary savings should be placed above any life, criminal or not.

Bipolar asked me what was to be learned from Harold Shipman in the thread about his death... well this is another reason i don't think we should practice capital punishment. We can learn lots from these people. Everyone who kills is different and they all kill for different reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't all have something in common. They do, they killed someone. And from them we can learn a lot, not just about why they killed and why certain types of people kill, but about people in general. And that can stop people being killed in the first place. There is a reason why institutions like the FBI devote huge resources to behavioural profiling.

Then there is of course the argument that the chance that you might accidentally kill an innocent party (which has happened) is not worth it. I agree totally with this. If one innocent life can be saved by not practicing capital punishment, then it's worth it.

17 Replies and 2564 Views in Total.

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

I think a quick, properly conducted execution is more humane than sentencing a murderer to live out their life in a small cell.

But I think capital punishment immoral, whereas life imprisonment isnÂ’t.

Contradictory? You betcha.

As maff rightly says, you will wind up executing innocent people, because miscarriages of justice are inevitable as long as people are capable of making mistakes, or police fabricating evidence. Over 100 innocent people have been released from death row in America since the death penalty was reinstated there in 1979. Executing innocent people is by definition murder, and a state knowingly executing the innocent is the ultimate hypocrite. It makes a mockery of its right to try people for doing likewise.

Letting the state execute its citizens also says that life is something the government suffers us to have, and the government has the right to take it away if it so chooses. I think life has inherent value, and giving any government this power is very dangerous.

The other major argument in favour of capital punishment is deterrence. No one has ever proved this.

I donÂ’t believe in punishment, I believe in rehabilitation and self-defence. You can justify imprisoning the worst murderers for life to protect society, but judicial murder is nothing but vengeance, and thatÂ’s something we should try and leave behind us.

Posted: 20:26 Jan 13 2004

bipolar "Aurgh! Arugh jeeez!! NO! NO NINA! BAD NINA!"

i just want to say now my questions were from curiosity at at no point expressed whether or not thought he deserved to die or how i felt about his death your comment just just sparked a few questions i wanted to ask.

I was also gonna mention the chance of innocent people being killed but you covered that at the end.

I do want to confront this comment:

We can learn lots from these people. Everyone who kills is different and they all kill for different reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't all have something in common. They do, they killed someone. And from them we can learn a lot, not just about why they killed and why certain types of people kill, but about people in general. And that can stop people being killed in the first place.

would this include people who were trained to do so and had to do so in wars and such coz they wouldve been seen as murderers to the families and some anti-war protesters. how about people that did so in self-defence but were still sent to prison for it? what about the few that dont fit into the FBI's criminal profile? are we now just discussing mass-murderers or any kind of killer?

hang on i know i had a point but i seem to have lost it and gone right off track

sorry i'll come back later if i got it all straight in my head.
(please dont attack me it all seemed like a normal inquizzitive (sp) thing to ask at the time)

Posted: 20:30 Jan 13 2004

Maffrew In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight...

My point was pretty much that you can learn from anyone. As i see it prison should do two things. It should educate prisoners and it should educate society about criminals and and crime.

It doesn't make any difference what the circumstances of their crime were, something can be learned from everyone.

If Hitler had never killed himself, i would argue forcefully that he should not be executed, because the scope of things that could be learned from him is so much greater than what is possible if he's a rotting corpse.

As for people in the army, i think most people can recognise the difference between a casualty of war and someone who has been murdered. A soldier who kills an enemy in fighting is not a murdered, he's a soldier (although some people would argue it's the same thing). A soldier who kills someone in cold blood is a murderer.

Posted: 20:39 Jan 13 2004

bipolar "Aurgh! Arugh jeeez!! NO! NO NINA! BAD NINA!"

by Maffrew

As for people in the army, i think most people can recognise the difference between a casualty of war and someone who has been murdered. A soldier who kills an enemy in fighting is not a murdered, he's a soldier (although some people would argue it's the same thing). A soldier who kills someone in cold blood is a murderer.

to the victims family (soldier or civilian) it's murder but how can the difference be told when it's jus not spoken about OR taken for word. especially if the situation is to act on instict to stay alive.

now im confused.

(please note i am not calling soldiers killers/murderers im just sitting on the fence and asking what questions pop to mind when reading these posts)

Posted: 20:55 Jan 13 2004

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

Murder is a premeditated killing, often against someone unable to defend themselves.

Justifiable homicide (which includes soldiers) is when a person kills in self-defence. In combat operations, it's taken as given that an armed enemy in uniform who hasn't surrendered is a deadly threat.

Soldiers can be tried for murder if they go beyond the limits of their Orders of Engagement, or act under an order that does so.

Posted: 21:11 Jan 13 2004

Cat "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." ~Anon

by Byron
Over 100 innocent people have been released from death row in America since the death penalty was reinstated there in 1979.

So give us a case where an innocent has been murdered. By freeing 100 deemed innocent it proves the US system works.

This is from Channel 4's documentary on Texas:-

Throughout the 1980s and early 90s Texas had the highest crime rates of any state in the US. George W Bush became Governor in 1994 on a promise that he would crack crime in the Lone Star State. His approach was to get tough on crime; he tripled the number of prison beds, lengthened prison sentences, made parole a thing of the past and encouraged the death penalty with zeal.

Under Bush crime rates halved in Texas. The state now boasts the highest incarceration and execution rates in the world.

Are you really sure it doesnt work? how much has crime increased here since the abolition of the death penalty? or even since 1994, just to keep the time frame the same?

Posted: 22:22 Jan 13 2004

Cat "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." ~Anon

by Byron From below.

Capital punishment has never been proven to deter murderers. It costs more to execute someone in America than it does to imprison them for life.

Wrong!

Cost per Day per Offender:
$61.58 (based on FY2002)

Lethal Injection Costs:
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

A long-drop hanging, where death is painless and instantaneous, is more humane than a lethal injection, which takes up to 40 minutes to administer.

Wrong again!

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)

Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)

Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)

The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.

OK, there is setting up time but pretty much they're asleep with in 2 minutes.

Putting someone through decades of life with the knowledge they could be killed at any moment has to be the worst form of torture ever devised.

True, but had these been my relatives, revenge, vengance, what ever, i'd feel justified in wanting it.

In November 2001, Young fatally shot a 41 year old white male and a 52 year old white male. Both victims were murdered for the use of their vehicles and both incidents occurred within a 48 hour period.

On 10/24/2001, in Montgomery, Texas, Perry, and one co-defendant fatally shot a 50 year old white female, a 17 year old white male and and 18 year old white male with a shotgun. A vehicle was also stolen from the residence of two of the victims.

On 05/27/1989, in Harris County, Bible attacked and sexually assaulted a white female that came to his residence to use the phone. Bible then stabbed the victim multiple times, resulting in her death.

On April 18, 2002, in Houston, Texas, Freeney took his girlfriend to a motel where he sexually assaulted her and stabbed her multiple times, resulting in her death. He left the scene and went to an apartment complex where he attacked a second female victim as she entered her home. He sexually assaulted her and stabbed her until she lost consciousness. He left the residence, picked up a third victim, took her to his residence where he choked her until she lost consciousness. When she awoke, he sexually assaulted her and stabbed her multiple times, resulting in her death.

Now, i have no history of murder in my family or friends. I do however have a history of sexual assult. I know 4 men who deserve to die for what they did. the tragardy is they are not only alive, they are also still free to do it.

Justice?

If employing capital punishment was proven to have drastic effects on crime reduction, judicial murder might be palatable. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

Maybe you missed this quote (not due just to the death penalty but, i believe, helped by it).

Under Bush crime rates halved in Texas.

Posted: 23:01 Jan 13 2004

Cat "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." ~Anon

Oh, forgot this one...

by Byron
The governor of Illinois recently called a moratorium on executions because of fears innocent people, disproportionately Afican-Americans, were being murdered by the state. As long as people are fallible, the innocent will be killed.

In Texas:

White females on Death Row:- 4

Black females on Death Row:- 4

Hispanic and other females on Death Row:- 0

White males on Death Row:- 138 (31%)

Black males on Death Row:- 182 (40.9%)

Hispanic males on Death Row:- 120 (27%)

Other males on Death Row:- 5 (1.1%)

Sounds pretty equal opportunities to me.

Posted: 23:10 Jan 13 2004

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by Cat
So give us a case where an innocent has been murdered. By freeing 100 deemed innocent it proves the US system works.

www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,398002,00.html

Â“It has been hitherto impossible to convince a US court to order posthumous DNA tests after an execution.Â”

You say to me, prove them innocent; I say to you, prove them guilty. 100 acquittals are not a ringing endorsement, but a damning indictment. So long as there remains the slightest chance an innocent man or woman will be killed by the state, capital punishment is unacceptable.

That George Ryan, the former governor of Illinois, lifelong Republican and supporter of capital punishment, felt it necessary to issue a moratorium on executions suggests something is very wrong in the state of Denmark. (Figuratively speaking, Denmark, like the rest of Europe, has long abandoned the ultimate penalty.)

This is from Channel 4's documentary on Texas:-

Throughout the 1980s and early 90s Texas had the highest crime rates of any state in the US. George W Bush became Governor in 1994 on a promise that he would crack crime in the Lone Star State. His approach was to get tough on crime; he tripled the number of prison beds, lengthened prison sentences, made parole a thing of the past and encouraged the death penalty with zeal.

Under Bush crime rates halved in Texas. The state now boasts the highest incarceration and execution rates in the world.

Are you really sure it doesnt work? how much has crime increased here since the abolition of the death penalty? or even since 1994, just to keep the time frame the same?

Britain's murder rate has risen since we abolished capital punishment in 1969.

Canada abolished the death penalty in 1976. Canada's murder rate dropped 43% in 24 years, from 3.09 per 100,000 in 1975 to 1.76 in 1999.

Here is a list of US States. Those who have abolished capital punishment are highlighted in yellow. There is no noticeable disparity in murder rates; in fact, several abolitionist states have lower incidences. Texas has a higher murder rate than all but one abolitionist State.

What this shows is that there is no causal link between capital punishment, either its retention or abolition, and the number of murders. Retaining judicial murder does not cost innocent lives, but its abolition saves them.

Do you really trust the state with your life?

Posted: 23:25 Jan 13 2004

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by Byron From below.
Capital punishment has never been proven to deter murderers. It costs more to execute someone in America than it does to imprison them for life.

Wrong!

Cost per Day per Offender:
$61.58 (based on FY2002)

Lethal Injection Costs:
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

Â“In Florida, each execution costs the state $3.2 million, compared to $600,000 for life imprisonment.Â” (source)

YouÂ’ve made the mistake of comparing the bald cost of an actual execution to the costs of life imprisonment. AmericaÂ’s execution system has convoluted process of imprisonment and appeals. If you take someone out the back of the court and hang them, itÂ’s going to be cheaper; if you have any sort of comprehensive appeals process, the costs are going to mount up. Even the most basic high court jury trial currently stands at Â£20,000.

A long-drop hanging, where death is painless and instantaneous, is more humane than a lethal injection, which takes up to 40 minutes to administer.

Wrong again!

Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)

Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)

Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)

The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.

OK, there is setting up time but pretty much they're asleep with in 2 minutes.

A long drop hanging, from the prisonerÂ’s entry into the room until the lever was pulled, took on average half a minute. Setting someone up for a lethal injection, including strapping them to a gurney, finding the a suitable vein, and checking the equipment, routinely takes up to 40 minutes, throughout which the prisoner is fully conscious.

Lethal injection is better for the audience, not the person about to be killed.

Putting someone through decades of life with the knowledge they could be killed at any moment has to be the worst form of torture ever devised.

True, but had these been my relatives, revenge, vengance, what ever, i'd feel justified in wanting it.

You would have every right, as a relative, to feel that way. But justice should be dispassionate, for the good reason that people who have just suffered such a brutal loss will not be thinking rationally. How would you feel if the person executed was subsequently proved innocent?

In November 2001, Young fatally shot a 41 year old white male and a 52 year old white male. Both victims were murdered for the use of their vehicles and both incidents occurred within a 48 hour period.

On 10/24/2001, in Montgomery, Texas, Perry, and one co-defendant fatally shot a 50 year old white female, a 17 year old white male and and 18 year old white male with a shotgun. A vehicle was also stolen from the residence of two of the victims.

On 05/27/1989, in Harris County, Bible attacked and sexually assaulted a white female that came to his residence to use the phone. Bible then stabbed the victim multiple times, resulting in her death.

On April 18, 2002, in Houston, Texas, Freeney took his girlfriend to a motel where he sexually assaulted her and stabbed her multiple times, resulting in her death. He left the scene and went to an apartment complex where he attacked a second female victim as she entered her home. He sexually assaulted her and stabbed her until she lost consciousness. He left the residence, picked up a third victim, took her to his residence where he choked her until she lost consciousness. When she awoke, he sexually assaulted her and stabbed her multiple times, resulting in her death.

Now, i have no history of murder in my family or friends. I do however have a history of sexual assult. I know 4 men who deserve to die for what they did. the tragardy is they are not only alive, they are also still free to do it.

Justice?

IÂ’m deeply sorry for what you have gone through, and it is of course no justice that they have been neither caught nor properly sentenced. But, and I am absolutely not suggesting this is the case here, a conviction for sexual assault often rests on one personÂ’s word against anotherÂ’s, and false accusations are sometimes made. Executing people for this crime would inevitably lead to wrongful convictions and judicial murders.

If employing capital punishment was proven to have drastic effects on crime reduction, judicial murder might be palatable. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

Maybe you missed this quote (not due just to the death penalty but, i believe, helped by it).

Under Bush crime rates halved in Texas.

Please see previous figures.

In Texas:

White females on Death Row:- 4

Black females on Death Row:- 4

Hispanic and other females on Death Row:- 0

White males on Death Row:- 138 (31%)

Black males on Death Row:- 182 (40.9%)

Hispanic males on Death Row:- 120 (27%)

Other males on Death Row:- 5 (1.1%)

Sounds pretty equal opportunities to me.

African-Americans make up 41% of death row inmates, but constitute just 12% of the Texan population.

(Edited by Byron 13/01/2004 23:49)

Posted: 23:47 Jan 13 2004

Cat "Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this." ~Anon

by Byron
Do you really trust the state with your life?

The UK courts? NO!

The US justice system, yes, i do.

As to the rest of it...

1) those figures only go up to 1995

2) the states with the lowest rates also have the lowest population (generally speaking). I remember reading (i think it was in a book written by an FBI Profiler but i cant find the book or remember his name. anyhoo...) he wrote that in the states that retain a "small town" community, murder rates are lower. the thinking was that it was because it's harder to get away with murder when everyone knows your business.

Posted: 23:50 Jan 13 2004

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by Cat
The UK courts? NO!

The US justice system, yes, i do.

So you don't support reintroducing capital punishment in the UK!

To be convicted of murder in Britain you must be sentenced by a jury of 12 peers. Until a recent Supreme Court judgement, in America you could be sentenced to die by a judge alone.

What gives you so much faith in American justice and so little in its British counterpart?

As to the rest of it...

1) those figures only go up to 1995

They go *from* 1995 to 2002.

2) the states with the lowest rates also have the lowest population (generally speaking). I remember reading (i think it was in a book written by an FBI Profiler but i cant find the book or remember his name. anyhoo...) he wrote that in the states that retain a "small town" community, murder rates are lower. the thinking was that it was because it's harder to get away with murder when everyone knows your business.

This is an argument for stronger community ties to which capital punishment is irrelevant.

Posted: 01:56 Jan 14 2004

Sydney You can lead the whore to culture but you can't make her think!

by Cat
The US justice system, yes, i do.

WHAT?!?

Where a Jury is chosen on how likely they are to convict you?

I know our justice system isn't perfect, but I'd much rather be tried for Murder over here as I just don't have enough money to guarentee I wouldn't be convicted in America.

Posted: 10:12 Jan 14 2004

Yally Don't kill anyone until we get back to you!

It scares me how many people in the world support the idea of capital punishment. I just believe it is so wrong. If you admit that killing is wrong, punishing someone by taking their life is just hypocritical. I could argue that it doesn't work as a deterrent, or that innocent people might die, but even if the system were completely reliable and deterred people from committing crimes, I'd still be against it.

Posted: 14:53 Jan 14 2004

JtB If someone gives you freedom it is not freedom, freedom is something you take for yourself.

by Sydney
(quotes)
I know our justice system isn't perfect, but I'd much rather be tried for Murder over here as I just don't have enough money to guarentee I wouldn't be convicted in America.

Something you want to tell us

Posted: 15:22 Jan 14 2004

Havoc Taryon > I think hackjack just stays here to teach new players how to use block

On, Cat's point of "Humane" lathal injection it wasd recently proved to be so painful it wasn't even fit for use on animals (ther words not mine, I think animals deserve a painless death so please don't shout at me).

Generally I'm against Executions, mainly on the innocents thing, but there is one crime for which I would hole heartedly support it's introductio, srictley controlled of course: Rape.

Posted: 16:40 Jan 14 2004

Byron "Live. Grow stronger. Fight another day."

by Yally
It scares me how many people in the world support the idea of capital punishment. I just believe it is so wrong. If you admit that killing is wrong, punishing someone by taking their life is just hypocritical. I could argue that it doesn't work as a deterrent, or that innocent people might die, but even if the system were completely reliable and deterred people from committing crimes, I'd still be against it.

Then there's the ethical argument that John Stuart Mill gave, that life is so sacred anyone who takes it should forfeit theirs in return.

Which seems a bit, well, contradictory.

I used to be against capital punishment on moral grounds, but now I take a more Utilitarian (there goes the Mill again) approach that out of the very limited options available, killing someone cleanly is more humane than locking them in a room for the remainder of their natural life. But outweighing that is my fear of innocent people facing judicial murder, and the abuse of state power.

As I don't see us becoming infallible anytime soon, I continue to oppose the death penalty, but I no longer find the idea of putting an irredeemable murderer to death as repugnant as I did. Of course, taking that view is dependent on the belief that there *is* such a thing as an irredeemable killer.

Posted: 16:51 Jan 14 2004

Post a Reply

Back to the Forum

Poll

What do you think of Matt Smith as The Doctor?

He's fantastic! Instant favourite! (14%)

Good. A decent choice. (57%)

Not sure, need to see more. (29%)

Meh... he'll do I guess. (0%)

Terrible! Might stop watching. (0%)

Site Info

About T21