---

by Alan
(quotes)

Oi! The Borg were good in First Contact! Leave the Borg alone!

---

The original Borg were a collective of many equal minds and voices, assimilating other cultures in order to move all towards perfection. There was no malice in their claim that 'resistance is futile'; to them it was just a statement of fact. Locutus was an emissary, a face for the Federation to react to and a mind that knew how they thought to allow the collective to plan its approach.

Then suddenly, up pops the Borg Queen, a devious, sinister tramp who just wants to make everything like her. Suddenly the Borg are another tedious hive race, and their 'adaptation' is reduced to a limited invulnerability to phaser fire.

In Voyager it gets worse. Species whichever show up and the Borg can't beat them, however many times they try exactly the same thing. They have to get a Starfleet surgeon to help them adapt their own nanoprobes, when adaptation used to be their schtick. The second time they tried to fry a cube with the big energy pulse doodad, it should have bounced off; likewise the transphasic torpedoes only should have worked once before the Borg got the idea.

Six million minds hooked into a massive parallel processing array; analysing threats, running simulations, designing solutions. They didn't get where they were today without knowing how to deal with new stuff, yet suddenly 'new' seems weird and scary to them, because they've become brainless drones to the silly baggage in green rubber, and she's all distracted trying to, hem, interface with Data.

I liked First Contact, as a film in its own right; I just thought it served the Borg badly.

And if all Borg are controlled by the Queen (or possibly Queens), why didn't she have words to say when Hugh and his mates all ran off to be individuals.

And how come the Borg can assimilate a society full of individuals without all wanting to climb every mountain, but one Borg gets ideas and suddenly the cube is very much alive with the sound of music?

---

by The Prophet

And how come the Borg can assimilate a society full of individuals without all wanting to climb every mountain, but one Borg gets ideas and suddenly the cube is very much alive with the sound of music?

---

It's due to the bipolar nature of the tachyon pulses emitted by the transphasic arrays present in the plasma-flux injectors near the di-lithium crystals in the warp core and if I give 'er any more she'll blow up Cap'n

---

by The Prophet
The second time they tried to fry a cube with the big energy pulse doodad, it should have bounced off; likewise the transphasic torpedoes only should have worked once before the Borg got the idea.

---

Yesss.... But they adapt because when you shoot a drone with a phaser it has some chance to send data about the phaser to the collective, also internal sensors will record stuff. The thing with transphasics and the species 8472 bio-beam is that they low up the cube instantly, no sending data to the collective because your coms just got vapourised, hence the no adapting, and although external sensors on some nearby cube may record the event since there's already a torpedo on the way to them they don't have much of a chance to adapt.

---

by Havoc
(quotes)

Yesss.... But they adapt because when you shoot a drone with a phaser it has some chance to send data about the phaser to the collective, also internal sensors will record stuff. The thing with transphasics and the species 8472 bio-beam is that they low up the cube instantly, no sending data to the collective because your coms just got vapourised, hence the no adapting, and although external sensors on some nearby cube may record the event since there's already a torpedo on the way to them they don't have much of a chance to adapt.

---

I have considered your idea on this subject and must respecfully disagree.




(Edited by MonSTeR 16/01/2003 17:25)

After a slight "technical difficulty" we'll recommence with the civil, well thought out discussion.

Any further klingon-like behaviour will answer to William Shatner's acting abilities

Not gonna be a comprehensive review here but...

I thought Nemesis was a good film. It wasn't as good as Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country or First Contact, but it was leagues better than Generations or Insurection.

As far as looks go, they were excellent. The special effects were fantastic, as was the set design. I loved the Enterprise design, inside and out. The Scimitar and Romulan Warbirds were cool too, and i actually liked the Romulan Senate. I think a small, understated room fits their mindset. Too ornate would be unfitting.

However, the script was a bit drab (data singing at the wedding? ugh!), and having B4 was a *huge* copout. Kill Data and then have a spare... i don't think so.

All in all, a good film though.

---

by Havoc
(quotes)

Yesss.... But they adapt because when you shoot a drone with a phaser it has some chance to send data about the phaser to the collective, also internal sensors will record stuff. The thing with transphasics and the species 8472 bio-beam is that they low up the cube instantly, no sending data to the collective because your coms just got vapourised, hence the no adapting, and although external sensors on some nearby cube may record the event since there's already a torpedo on the way to them they don't have much of a chance to adapt.

---

Okay then; the detailed answer.

Given that Borg internal communication functions at the speed of thought through neural implants and nano-probe connections, there is no such thing as an attack that happens too fast for them to gather and collate information on it and send it to another cube. Certainly, nothing faster than being taken out with a well-placed phaser shot. Moreover, it has been established that the 2.6 seconds it takes the bio-blast to take out the cube is more than enough for them to retask a new comms section, even if the main array is the first point hit.

Furthermore, at least one cube remaineda floating thing in space, with a borg trying to assimilate a Species THX-1138 scout ship, and failing. Yet it is established that Borg nanoprobes can work on them - in fact it's the key to the whole deal - but even if that Borg's problem was that he was all alone, apparently the Collective need the help of humans to adapt the nanoprobes, which makes no sense. If they were unassimilateable because they shift constantly on a microcellular level, the addition of some human thought wouldn't help overcome that, especially since the Borg already have the benefit of human thought.

And the idea that the Federation can beat off the Borg by sheer force of manliness just confirms that they have gone from implacable force of nature to pitiful galactic whipping boys.

Alas poor Borg; no death before dishonour.

To Maffrew

---

by Maffrew
I thought Nemesis was a good film. It wasn't as good as Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country or First Contact, but it was leagues better than Generations or Insurection.

---

Gotta disagree with you there mate, personally i think Generations is the best of the lot

P.S thanks for making my thread one of the few chosen to recieve a post by you

To The Prophet

O.K I'm going to stop trying to make excuses for voyager now, you're right, it did kind of ruin the borg, although as a minor point it wasn't the benefit of human thought that helped the borg with 8472 it was the benefit of the run time of voyagers computer all wrapped up in the gruop of sub-routiones known as the doctor. Oh, and besides the borg obviously need help in the thinking department: if the federation are such a threat, why don't they just send say, 17 cubes since 1 can take out the feds entire fleet.

---

by Havoc
To Maffrew

(quotes)
O.K I'm going to stop trying to make excuses for voyager now, you're right, it did kind of ruin the borg, although as a minor point it wasn't the benefit of human thought that helped the borg with 8472 it was the benefit of the run time of voyagers computer all wrapped up in the gruop of sub-routiones known as the doctor. Oh, and besides the borg obviously need help in the thinking department: if the federation are such a threat, why don't they just send say, 17 cubes since 1 can take out the feds entire fleet.

---

I wanted to like Voyager, I really did; but it just never clicked for me. Maybe it was Paris and Kim. One or the other I could take, but the wide-eyed newbie and the cocky pilot on the same boat just got a little too much.

Yet the run-time of a single Borg mini-cube collective of five should be greater than Voyager's entire network, since it comprises electronic components and five ultra-sophisticated neural net processors; with the added advantage that they know everything there is to know about the nanoprobes. Since seven is part of a nine-strong workgroup, they shouldn't have a problem.

And the Federation aren't a threat to the Borg, just more trouble than they're worth to assimilate. That's the point: Nothing is personal until the rubber witch turns up, so the Borg just slope along for a little assimilation when they're in the neighbourhood. Particularly since, once they understand the tricks used on them, the Borg would find the Feds used a clever wheeze, not a superior technological or biological resource that would make them a priority target.

(Edited by The Prophet 20/01/2003 12:37)

I also have to admit, Voyager wasn't brilliant, but it was watchable, but I reckon the Doctor/EMH was a pretty cool character. Dunno why, I just reckon he was funny.

I also agree, why kill poor Data? There's just no justice in the universe. Plus B4 was irritating.

---

The Prophet
That's the point: Nothing is personal until the rubber witch turns up, so the Borg just slope along for a little assimilation when they're in the neighbourhood. Particularly since, once they understand the tricks used on them, the Borg would find the Feds used a clever wheeze, not a superior technological or biological resource that would make them a priority target.

---

firstly, they're never in the neighbourhood, they live 65,000 light years away from us, secondly as the group that took on the ardest elements from the alpha, beta and gamma quadrents and are with one ship shakingup the delta I think the borg might think that instead of occaisionly wasting a cube it might be an idea to get some new tech and however many billions of drones the fed has, thirdly it makes good sense: take the fed and you've got a staging base for the klingons empire, the cardassian union, the ferengi alliance and the romulan star empire, and from there the only species group that can put up a token resistance in the galaxy is the dominion, that's the thing i don't understand, every time the borg attack every one else uses it as an excuse to attack the fed when they should be helping defend them.

---

by Havoc
(quotes)

firstly, they're never in the neighbourhood, they live 65,000 light years away from us, secondly as the group that took on the ardest elements from the alpha, beta and gamma quadrents and are with one ship shakingup the delta I think the borg might think that instead of occaisionly wasting a cube it might be an idea to get some new tech and however many billions of drones the fed has, thirdly it makes good sense: take the fed and you've got a staging base for the klingons empire, the cardassian union, the ferengi alliance and the romulan star empire, and from there the only species group that can put up a token resistance in the galaxy is the dominion, that's the thing i don't understand, every time the borg attack every one else uses it as an excuse to attack the fed when they should be helping defend them.

---

I also dislike the idea of a Borg 'home'. They used to be pretty much based in the cube, and they attacked the Federation because it was in the path of their nomadic travels and giving off good vibes. I certainly don't think they'd need a staging base to attack the other groups in the alpha quadrant; especially not the Ferengi. More importantly perhaps, the Borg actually don't think in terms of conquest and military campaigns.

Also, the Fed have very little tech they could use. Most of their basic stuff they would already have from the Raven and the outposts they attacked en route. Anyway, it's not like the Fed beat them in a fight until First Contact, and that was another clever trick scenario really, so it's just square jaws and biomass that the Federation offers.

But now they 'live' in the alpha quadrant, have dozens of cubes, and the Queen gets miffed when she's beaten. As you say, it no longer really makes sense that they don't transwarp to the alpha quadrant and bring the hurting.

---

by The Prophet
it definitely felt like a TOS movie, rather than a TNG one.

---

Simply question.

TNG = The Next Generation
TOS =

The Original Series

Methinks Havoc's and The Prophet's discussion isn't really suited to a film thread, so out of interest in the topic at hand, I've given it a nice shiny new thread here, if you're interested.

Good call Alan

If anyone wishes to discuss the borg issue further then hop along to Alan's new thread, and we'll keep this one open for Nemesis discussion

Ta

mmm, I once was a big Next Gen fan. In fact, I still am - of the TV series, but I just don't think they've done themselves justice on any of the movies.

Nemesis was a bit of a mess.

1) I was a bit miffed that NO-ONE mentioned Lore! At all!
2) Modern audiences don't wanna see Riker, and Picard getting involved in fistie-cuffs with the baddies. They're old and past it in the action stakes. Riker running along the corridor and jumping down the chute to chase the baddie was laughable.
3) If yer gonna kill off a main character, then at the very least give them a decent death scene. This was not.
4) Yeh cannie change the laws of Physics, and yeh cannie change the laws of making a good movie either. Start with a decent story. This was not
5) All that technology and cleverness, and the baddie is defeated using a handily located pointy stick. Fair enough for Buffy, but not Picard.

oh, I could go on.

Okay I will,
Picard & Riker have served with each other for umpteen years, so I expected a wee bit more than 'Tis been a pleasure serving with you, the pleasure's all mine - See ya!' C'mon, did they employ ANY writers on this show.

Does anyone know where all the staff writers who wrote some fantastic episodes (Darmok, Family, '4 lights' ...) have gone to? Certainly none of them have pitched a Trek movie.

I did however like the baddie. Excellent performance.

And as for Stuart Baird directing, Executive Decision was a pretty good film, but I just don't think Baird was the right choice for a Star Trek movie. Jonathan Frakes proved he could do it (After all, he did a damn good job of First Contact) so why didn't he continue? Even though Baird is an action movie director (Well, I suppose you could think of him that way) the actual action wasn't all that great unfortunately...

But still, it could've been a whole lot worse, right?