This guy has got way to much time on his hands.

he mentioned star wars
ok so what colour are Stormtroopers then. Does that make them good guys.
Don't most Jedi wear brown/black robes even the good ones.

*Really really REALLY tempted to quote Chasing Amy but doesn't*

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by Spikeo
*Really really REALLY tempted to quote Chasing Amy but doesn't*

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I'll do it for you.

HOOPER: Always some white boy gotta
invoke `the holy trilogy'! Bust this -
those movies are about how the white
man keeps the brother man down - even
in a galaxy far, far away. Check
this <scat>. You got cracker farm-boy
Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy -
blond hair, blue eyes.
And then you've got Darth
Vader: the blackest brother in the
galaxy. Nubian God.

BANKY
What's a Nubian?

HOOPER
Shut the <expletive deleted> up! Now Vader, he's a
spiritual brother, with the force and
all that <dung>. Then this cracker
Skywalker gets his hands on a light-
saber, and the boy decides he's
gonna run the <expletive deleted> universe - gets
a whole Klan of whites together, and
they're gonna bust up Vader's `hood
the Death Star. Now what the <expletive deleted> do
you call that!

BANKY: Intergalactic Civil War!

HOOPER: Gentrification. They're gonna drive
our the black element, to make the
galaxy quote, unquote 'safe' for white
folks.

HOLDEN: But Vader turns, out to be Luke's
father. And in Jedi, they become
friends.

HOOPER: Don't make me bust a cap in your ass,
yo! Jedi's the most insulting
installment, because Vader's
beautiful, black visage is
sullied when he pulls off his mask to
reveal a feeble, crusty white man!
They're trying to tell us that deep
inside, we all want to be white!

BANKY: Well isn't that true!

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by Byron
BANKY - What's a Nubian?

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<edit> you almost made me laugh!

As for The Lord of the Rings being racist... Well Duh!!! The book was written in the 20s and published in the 50s (i think ) they were hardly the most enlightened of times and Tolkein probably wasn't being deliberately racist, it was more likely unconcious social conditioning of the time.

I'm surprised no one brought it up earlier. Watch out next week for the essay about its mysoginistic/sexist outlook

There would have been an even bigger fuss kicked up if Jackson had ignored the description of the Orcs etc in the books in order to make the film 'politically correct'

(Edited by Sydney 03/12/2002 16:57)

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by Byron

All together now: are you on crack mate?

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LMAO

This thread was just moved from General Chat, because it's talking about the latest film interpretation of the Tolkien classic, otehrwise it should be in books and comics

Interesting side note though dwelling on the Star Wars connection.

In Episode 1, The Royal Naboo Cruiser (the silver spaceship) is described as being a "J-Type Nubian"



(Edited by MonSTeR 03/12/2002 17:46)

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by Holden McNeil
<edit>! Lando Calrissian was a black man, and he got to fly the Millennium Falcon!

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I wasn't going to post for a change, having read the previous posts and basically finding myself agreeing with Sydney.

But I had a restless afternoon of sleep (I'm working nights at the mo), and this thread kept coming to mind. I should point that I'm a bit of a Tolkein obsessive and have read everything I could find on Middle Earth and on him. What was bugging me was this talk of race. Here is what Webster's says about race:

'The descendants of a common ancestor; a family, tribe, people, or nation, believed or presumed to belong to the same stock; a lineage; a breed.'

(Interesting to note that it also says there is no agreed scientific definition regarding race and humans and certainly none that conforms to how the word is commonly used.)

Thing is, Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Hobbits are not of the same species, and are not therefore 'racially' separate. They do not have a shared ancestor, family, tribe, people or nation. They are not of the same stock, lineage or breed.

However, it is true that Orcs and Goblins are descendants of Elves captured by Morgoth, someone who makes Sauron look like Oliver North. They have been butchered and tortured until they become unthinking creatures of hate and violence. This isn't genetic determinism but a story of good versus evil. Of the lengths some will go to get the target of their desires (be it ownership of the simarils or dominion of middle earth). Orcs aren't evil because of their race, but because of what stronger powers have done to them.

And let's look at some of the various Human characters. Aragorn, Boromir and Saruman. Aragorn, although the descendant of a noble house, is now a wanderer and considered someone distasteful by most communities. Yet he is the classic epic hero, with classic hero morals. Boromir, a basically good guy, yet he is easily mislead to the point of treachery. And Saruman. Darth Vader in a robe. Evil through and through. Yet all of the same race. What was that about genetic determinism?

Yes, the men of the south and east (lands in thrall to Sauron) are almost caricatures to the modern reader. Yet there is nothing in Tolkein's writing to suggest that they are all as happy to be slaves to Sauron as those who appear in the battles are.

Even Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits are of variable morality. Some are of a noble persuasion, while others wallow in greed and avarice, or just plain distrust and aggression towards outsiders. Again, I fail to see this idea that the characters of Middle Earth are defined by their genetics.

So letÂ’s come to the real problem. The description of the Rohirrim and the Dunedain is a BNPers wet dream. But we need to be aware of Tolkein's motives in writing the sagas of Middle Earth. His goal was to create a modern mythology of a North European nature. The people of Gondor and Rohan are described as they are as they are meant to be the indigenous people of northern Europe. This is no more racist than the emphasis placed on the Iliad, Gilgamesh, Mabinogoin or other such tales. Being Blonde and white of skin doesn't make you an Aryan Supremacist. Nor should we allow the events in Germany in the last century to make us scared of our own reflection.

And, for the record, The Phantom Menace is littered with racist references, but by the Attack of the Clones, this has almost disappeared, and only exists in characters created in the first episode. All of whom have a much reduced role (fortunately). The writer of the article needed to research his subject more. To me, he just came over as a bored journalist with a quota to fillÂ…

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by Jayjay
But I had a restless afternoon of sleep (I'm working nights at the mo), and this thread kept coming to mind. I should point that I'm a bit of a Tolkein obsessive and have read everything I could find on Middle Earth and on him. What was bugging me was this talk of race. Here is what Webster's says about race:

'The descendants of a common ancestor; a family, tribe, people, or nation, believed or presumed to belong to the same stock; a lineage; a breed.'

(Interesting to note that it also says there is no agreed scientific definition regarding race and humans and certainly none that conforms to how the word is commonly used.)

Thing is, Elves, Dwarves, Humans and Hobbits are not of the same species, and are not therefore 'racially' separate. They do not have a shared ancestor, family, tribe, people or nation. They are not of the same stock, lineage or breed.

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I've got a genuine question and I'm not trying to poke holes in the above. I'm not a Tolkien obsessive, I'm very grateful for him practically starting the modern fantasy genre, and I've enjoyed his workds but I'm not really into them if you know what I mean.

OK. Does Tolkien ever give the possibility of Half Elves like many fantasy genre's do? Mother a beautiful elven Princess, Father a bold and dashing human hero type thing?

Cos that has implications of Elves and Humans having a common lineage. Or did he state that Elves and hobbits etc were brought about "magically" rather than "biologically" ?

I'm just curious really and you definately seem to be Tolkien-ified enought to be able to answer the question for me

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by Jayjay
To me, he just came over as a bored journalist with a quota to fill…

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Oh and lately, Jayjay I think ALL journalists are of pretty much the same mould

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by MonSTeR
(quotes)

OK. Does Tolkien ever give the possibility of Half Elves like many fantasy genre's do? Mother a beautiful elven Princess, Father a bold and dashing human hero type thing?

Cos that has implications of Elves and Humans having a common lineage. Or did he state that Elves and hobbits etc were brought about "magically" rather than "biologically" ?

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There are about half-a-dozen half-elves in all of history I think, mostly descending from Luthien and Beren. Luthien was the most beautiful elf-maid ever (but not in a soppy way; she was as hard as nails besides, 'cause that's elves for you), while Beren was a hero in an epic mould. To be with him however, Luthien had to give up her immortality.

They had one son, Dior, whose daughter Elwing married Earendil (who may also have been Half-Elven). Now, Dior and Elwing both seem to have had the life of Eldar - the elvish immortality - but Elwing and Earendil's sons, at the end of the Second Age I think, had to chose mortality or immortality.

One of these sons was Elrond, who chose to live as an elf and wed Celebrion daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. The other was someone else (my copy of the Silmarillion is at home), who became mortal, married a mortal and sired the line of kings in Numenor, who in time became rulers of Gondor and Arnor. The Numenoreans however fell from grace in a particularly Biblical style, and so the line of kings dwindled as it interbred with the folk of Middle Earth.

It's worth noting that the lesser folk the Numenoreans bred with were the Gondorians and the Rohirrim.

Also, as is often not mentioned, one of Aragorn's notable characteristics is that he is darker that most of the men in western Middle Earth. This fact actually causes many to mistrust the Rangers. I don't hold this up as a sign of Tolkein's atemporal enlightenment, just that he clearly wasn't deliberately writing 'blonde is better'.

Also, although the Western races are less corrupt that the Easterners, they live further away from the Shadow, and besides, have both been there and done that. The Nazgul - or some of them at least - were westerners, and even the elves were duped once upon a time. It was a pure-blooded Numenorean, Isildur, who took the ring, and pure-blooded Numenoreans whose corruption destroyed their land, Atlantis-style.

The races in Middle Earth mostly hail from different steps of creation. The elves were supposed to be the first, to be set on Middle Earth once it was finished, but one of the lesser spirits - an earthy being - made the dwarves from stones because he thought the place would look nicer witha few sapient beings around. I forget where humans come in; but it's all terribly complicated. Orcs were created from elves in mockery of the creator's work, and are evil because Morgoth's malice and hatred went into their making.

I'm not sure anyone knows where hobbits come from. It's stated explicitly that they get left out of all the old tales, even when their own lore says they sent troops to a battle.

(Edited by The Prophet 05/12/2002 13:48)

Erm, Prophet pretty much covered it. So, yes, there are half-elves, and technically this should not be possible across species. Something Tolkein kinda ignored. But He does state quite clearly that humans, elves and dwarves are created seperately. In fact, he goes into quite a lot of details about it. In theory, half-orcs should be possible, but not very likely. Hobbits don't appear until the third age and no one knows their origin. Just as with Smeagol's people. There's almost a suggestion that they are the first people of Middle Earth to have evolved, rather than be a direct creation of a diety.

And Prophet, for someone who didn't have a copy of (the utterly fantastic) Silmarillion to hand, that was pretty darned impressive. I think I could have managed 'Yeah, happens a bit in the First Age, which leads to the Numenor line of Kings, who go on to be the rulers of Gondor and Rohan', but all those names! Recognized them all with a huge smile, but not something I could do off the top of my head. I feel humbled. How'd you find the Unfinished Tales?

It was sitting on the shelf in the library

Actually, I haven't read Unfinished Tales, although it's something I might pick up once I'm done with my current re-reading of LotR.

Oh, and Elrond and his brother had to choose between immortality and mortality at the end of the First Age, after which no more half-elves, which I guess is why Arwen couldn't marry Aragorn until <I>after</I> she'd renounced the life of Eldar.

(Edited by The Prophet 13/12/2002 09:22)

To be honest, I found Unfinished Tails hard going. Only finished it because I was obsessed. Most of the real lore of Tolkein Mythology is in the Silmarillion, which in my less than humble one is by far the best of his books.