I have thoguht about one good thing in the film, Monica Bellucci

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by The Prophet
(quotes)

You know he's French, right?

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oh dear goddess.....maybe trying to speak english was toooo hard for him!

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by The Prophet
Certainly it lends weight to my carefully thought out 'he was evil in Star Trek, don't trust him' theory if he's the former One making sure that Neo completes his machine-given purpose.

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Oh, thank you. I didn't trust him on sight too, but couldn't work out where i recognised him from. Its a fine theory

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by nemesis
(quotes)

oh dear goddess.....maybe trying to speak english was toooo hard for him!

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I knew he was French, but I thought he might be going for a regional dialect
Terible, terrible accent! *shakes head desparingly*

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by The Prophet
(quotes)

Yes, but not everyone in Zion is descended from that core. New people come out. The councillor certainly implied that he had come out, although that could be because he was the one. Certainly it lends weight to my carefully thought out 'he was evil in Star Trek, don't trust him' theory if he's the former One making sure that Neo completes his machine-given purpose.

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the counciler had said he had slept for 11 years of his life. but in my knowledge the one that returns to the matrix doesnt go back in as a human in a tank but in essense, his program is the basis of a new matrix so the one cannot return to the 'real world' again. but talikng of startrek ideas i noticed that the crew of the hovercrafts wear red blue or yellow depending on what they do.sound familiar?


(quotes)

One thing I'm not quite clear on: Did he make the choice the architect wanted him to or not?[/quote]

no i dont think he did as the previous ones were more non human they had lost their humanity which was the key to them letting all those people die in order to restart Zion and a new matrix. neo had his emotions and most importantly had love for trinity. i think by him going through the other door he has started the crash of the system.the architect seemd flustered that neo choose the door he did.

(quotes)

Well, in Enter the Matrix she demands the same thing from Niobe in exchange for access to the Merovingian's dungeon to rescue Ghost. Not sure if Ghost gets the same deal if you're playing him, because I haven't got him up to that point yet.[/quote]

i soo have to play that game tho my pc would die if i tried! so persephone asks Niobe for a kiss? is that how im reading this right? cool!

(quotes)

Okay; I realise I was working on cool more than logic - which, I maintain, makes me little different from the Wachowski (sp?) brothers save in terms of budget - but you don't need computers to get in and out of the Matrix; not computers in the Matrix anyway. The big stumbler would be getting the people you bring out to accept what they see, but since I assume the hovercraft and all Zion's stuff - especially the interfaces - to be salvaged from the machines, all you need is for the former One to get the ball rolling by teaching the first people how it works..[/quote]

hmmm. no, i still think computers are nessecary to access the matrix, how would the rebels train without a training program? the thing thats stuck in the head is a direct interface with the matrix / system and would need a computer to control. they wouldnt be able to read what their people were doing without screens.
the hovercraft /technology came from the time before the machines as morpheus says humanity reached a perfection of technology then went one step to far and made sentient machines. so thus mankind was at a very technological stage when the war started.


(quotes)

We also know that there was at least one Matrix with vampires and werewolves in it, possibly the first, although why the 'perfect' world would have werewolves in is a bit of a puzzler.

[/quote]

true true this is a tuffy!but i think those programs that are negative/obsolete have always been in the system they mearly have taken attributes of human mythology in order for them to have a sense of control over humanity. as said its all about control.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

In fairness, I didn't walk out of the cinema disappointed but that is only because I was expecting the movie to be poor and it fulfilled my expectations..................
.......All in all, an overindulgent waste of everyone's time and money which tries to compensate for having nothing of interest to say by shouting as loudly as possible.

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Well to save me boiling over ill guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

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by nemesis
(quotes)

the counciler had said he had slept for 11 years of his life. but in my knowledge the one that returns to the matrix doesnt go back in as a human in a tank but in essense, his program is the basis of a new matrix so the one cannot return to the 'real world' again. but talikng of startrek ideas i noticed that the crew of the hovercrafts wear red blue or yellow depending on what they do.sound familiar?

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But clearly they do stay and interract with those they choose. Morpheus says in the first film that when the Matrix was first created, a man was born inside with the power to control it: Not born, he was the former One. He freed the first rebels, and when he died the Oracle prophecied his return.

Also, if he is the former One the councillor has been lying to everyone, so who cares what he says?

At the end of Enter the Matrix, by the way, a crazy homeless guy (who may or may not be John Glover) tells Niobe that last time Zion lasted 72 hours. Now, maybe he's an exiled programme, but if not that suggests each Matrix lasts just under the extent of a human lifespan (or at least that this one did).

I had not notiuced the outfits. To be honest, most of them just seemed to wear grey, but then I am colourblind.

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(quotes)

One thing I'm not quite clear on: Did he make the choice the architect wanted him to or not?

no i dont think he did as the previous ones were more non human they had lost their humanity which was the key to them letting all those people die in order to restart Zion and a new matrix. neo had his emotions and most importantly had love for trinity. i think by him going through the other door he has started the crash of the system.the architect seemd flustered that neo choose the door he did.

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Yet, he mocks Neo that hope is the emotion that will mess with him, and describes entering the core as 'Zion's salvation'. He certainly exits the source changed, and - again according to Enter the Matrix - gets stuck between the real world and the Matrix somehow (hence he can talk to the Sentinels; walk and squeak and squawk with the Sentinels).

It makes a big difference of course, since in the one case the impending crash of the Matrix is due to Neo's choice, and in the other it is due to Smith. My money is on Smith being the factor which makes a difference you see, and which the rebels have to exploit, rather than Neo foiling the Architect's plans directly. I mean, as near as I can make out, they deliberately 'built' him to love Trinity - in as much as they have a direct hand in engineering the One - which seems dumb if they want him to sacrifice her.

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say it: The Architect's speech confused me. Maybe I need to see it again, but I felt he kept reversing his position almost. Maybe he learned his 1337 debating skills from usenet?

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i soo have to play that game tho my pc would die if i tried! so persephone asks Niobe for a kiss? is that how im reading this right? cool!

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Yes you are, although it's brief and the scene is more notable for Monica Belluchi's superb line: "That was terrible; I wish you had shot me in the kneecaps".

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hmmm. no, i still think computers are nessecary to access the matrix, how would the rebels train without a training program? the thing thats stuck in the head is a direct interface with the matrix / system and would need a computer to control. they wouldnt be able to read what their people were doing without screens.

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But I'll say again: You don't need computers _in the Matrix_. Of course there are computers in the hovercrafts and so forth, because that's the tech of the past, provided by the machines to keep Zion rolling until the next One shows up. The fact that the Matrix is high medieval does not mean that the rebels have to be galloping around the sewers on horses.

Although again; cool upon cool.

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the hovercraft /technology came from the time before the machines as morpheus says humanity reached a perfection of technology then went one step to far and made sentient machines. so thus mankind was at a very technological stage when the war started.

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Perhaps; but I maintain the machines basically provide this stuff.

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(quotes)

We also know that there was at least one Matrix with vampires and werewolves in it, possibly the first, although why the 'perfect' world would have werewolves in is a bit of a puzzler.

true true this is a tuffy!but i think those programs that are negative/obsolete have always been in the system they mearly have taken attributes of human mythology in order for them to have a sense of control over humanity. as said its all about control.

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But they haven't taken on the characteristics: It's stated that the werewolves escaped termination because they're immune to everything but silver (and never mind that the Agents should have known to carry silver bullets). Clearly they were always werewolves. Likewise the vamps in Enter the Matrix need to be staked, and presumably always did.

Also, the Oracle implies that all such myths derive from the rogue programmes, rather than vice-versa. The fact that this means the MiB are chasing aliens and vampires (Agents v. Exiles) is an added bonus.

(Edited by The Prophet 30/05/2003 09:35)

Ok, there was one bit that got me...

Is the Real World 'real'?

How I interpreted it was, the Matrix was the whole - Real world & fake world.
The architect talked about the One making choices he'd faced before.
How else could they have 'destroyed' Zion & 'remade' it many times before? Surely there would have been people who remembered something like that?!?
How else could The One have the power to save or destroy Zion &/or the real world/Trinity many times before?

Not very eloquent at this time of the morning, but something to think about.

Just saw it...... pretty good movie, bit more of the same but just a bit better. Not as a great revolution like the matrix was but what can you expect...

Cool swirl in the whole story...... but seems to me as it's gonna turn into another 13th floor only not set in 1937

I hope everyone sat through the titleroll / credits as there was a really nice trailer of Revolution after that

Really interesting bit is how will this continue.... Is the architect really in control as we saw in the movie what control means or is ex agent Smith taking over (the matrix obviously can't control him anymore) did he now become the highest branch in the matrix foodchain instead of the Architect / Oracle...

It's a bit of a shame that we can kinda guess what is gonna happen in Revolution as most likely this trilogie will have an happy ending in one way or another

(Edited by Chambler 30/05/2003 23:50)

Re: Medieval Stuff, if you watch Animatrix, one of the short stories is set in and old world Japan type scenario, okay, it's only a training simulation, but there's no reason why that couldn't apply inside the matrix too.
Only snag is, once someone is unplugged from the matrix, real-world Zion would be a bit of a shock..

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by Stoo
real-world Zion would be a bit of a shock..

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What real world Zion?

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

What real world Zion?

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Well yeah, that is a possibility, but I guess we're just going to have to wait until November to find that out

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by Stoo
Re: Medieval Stuff, if you watch Animatrix, one of the short stories is set in and old world Japan type scenario, okay, it's only a training simulation, but there's no reason why that couldn't apply inside the matrix too.
Only snag is, once someone is unplugged from the matrix, real-world Zion would be a bit of a shock..

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I'm going to say this again: Why would real world Zion be more of a shock to a Samurai than to a resident of modern day Chicago? Is the average Chicano just going to be all like 'oh hey, one of those underground cities in hiding from a machine army; I heard about those'?

The modern human might be able to comprehend that these are thinking machines, but no more easily than the samurai could comprehend them as steel demons.

As to whether the real world is real...Well, I'll be hugely disappointed if it isn't, because it would feel like a cop out. The 13th Floor made it work because it was the whole premise of the movie, but as a plot twist it would feel forced, and I refuse to believe that they had it in mind when they made the first one.

How can they have destroyed Zion and remade it without anyone noticing? Well, probably with an army of Sentinels and a big drill. Even if the Sentinels miss a few people, if they destroy or damage the life support machines, then all there is is people sitting on the edge of the Earth's semi-molten mantle. With nowhere to recharge, the ships stop working and the people in them are either caught or they die.

The people _in_ the Matrix have no memory of any of this, because they saw nothing. The only things that remember are the top programmes - the Architect and maybe the Oracle - and the exiles who are outside the syste and can't be terminated or rebooted; people like the Merovingian and the crazy homeless guy in Enter the Matrix who tells Niobe the last Zion lasted 72 hours. And of course the One, who sets up the new Zion and starts the cycle again.

Re Neo sensing and destroying the sentinels - although I'm not 100% certain that the latter wasn't supposed to be the other ship's EMP or something - according to the Oracle in Enter the Matrix, having touched the source, Neo is now somewhere between the Matrix and the real world, his mind and body disconnected somehow.

I can't help wondering if that's where the dark alley filled with rain and Smiths will turn out to be: I kind of no-man's land.

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by Chambler
Is the architect really in control as we saw in the movie what control means or is ex agent Smith taking over (the matrix obviously can't control him anymore) did he now become the highest branch in the matrix foodchain instead of the Architect / Oracle...

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The Architect is presumably the big man in the Matrix still but while he's in control of the world - for now at least - he clearly isn't in control of Smith, who is now both an exile and an anomaly.

The Oracle was never the cheese, even if she is the 'mother' the Architect speaks of; she just knows stuff anbd came up with the anomaly solution. Again from Enter the Matrix, she says that she can't see beyond 'the end'. I don't know if she means the end of the path of the One in general, or the destruction wrought by Smith and/or Neo's choice. She also says that the Merovingian killed her former self, having persuaded two exiles to betray her for the sake of their child, who will be important, which is just getting needlessly plural with its messiahs, but we'll see where if anywhere that goes.

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop.

(Edited by The Prophet 01/06/2003 12:48)

I'll be brief. Ish.

-I dunno what some of you guys were expecting from this film to be so disappointed (anyone says 'a good movie' gets a negative cookie)

-I liked it as a whole, yes some of it was a bit pretentious but I'd rather pretentiousness than having things put across in the lowest common denominator

-Some of you guys must have been looking *really* hard to see the CGI glitches or maybe my eyes are going

-I'm not so sure the Twins are dead, especially since Merangivian is still alive and they do work for him...

-I too am thinking Smith is going to be the key to how things play out, especially since Neo is (if I remember right) according to the Architect supposed to be the only anomoly in the Matrix...now that him and Smith are in Smith's words "connected" it's probably going to throw things out of whack.

-Also that kid has something to do with everything...from what I've been told he is the centre of one of the Animatrix episodes so that kinda suggests something. And Neo did say that he had freed himself...

-Dunno, seems this and Two Towers are getting the shaft from some people purely because they don't stand up to the originals...middle films of trilogies never (or very rarely) do they are irrevocably different types of film, firsts always introduce all the main concepts, characters etc and all the 'neat stuff' the particular universe has to offer. The second film has the most arduous task of building towards a climax while still expanding on the first and having a conclusion of some sort in its' own right. Then it's just up to the concluding part to round things up, normally resulting in another good movie since it gets all the climactic stuff to show off (Star Wars excepted - and I exclude Godfather since there is no third part...just a crap film that happens to share the same name ).

Reloaded isn't perfect but my curiosity has been piqued and I'm looking forward to Revolutions. And I'm done.

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by Spikeo
I'll be brief. Ish.

-I dunno what some of you guys were expecting from this film to be so disappointed (anyone says 'a good movie' gets a negative cookie)

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I was expecting a comedy about a neurotic writer. I mean, what else do you expect from a Woddy Allen film...

Oh, hang on...

One thing a lot of people seem to latch onto is cheesy dialogue such as Seraph's line 'you do not truly know someone until you have fought them'. Rather than cod philosophy however, I suspect that for him this is the literal truth; that one-on-one combat is how that programme learns about others, much as Persephone learns something about the people she kisses. If Seraph fights someone, he knows that they are who they seem to be.

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-I liked it as a whole, yes some of it was a bit pretentious but I'd rather pretentiousness than having things put across in the lowest common denominator

-Some of you guys must have been looking *really* hard to see the CGI glitches or maybe my eyes are going

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THere are scenes where it shows, but it's still very good CGI. I mean, it's not like Blade II, where the CGI transitions were just painful.

Of course, it's not like Blade II where the whole film was painful.

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-I too am thinking Smith is going to be the key to how things play out, especially since Neo is (if I remember right) according to the Architect supposed to be the only anomoly in the Matrix...now that him and Smith are in Smith's words "connected" it's probably going to throw things out of whack.

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I'm not sure he's the sole anomaly, so much as the sum of all anomalies. Presumably the spoon-bending orphans are in their own small way anomalous.

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by Spikeo
-I dunno what some of you guys were expecting from this film to be so disappointed (anyone says 'a good movie' gets a negative cookie)

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I wasn't disappointed... I was expecting exactly what I got, a very average movie.

I don't know how you can suggest this is a movie that doesn't pander to the lowest common denominator. It is one long series of set pieces strung together with the weakest of storylines and requiring of its lead actors that they do nothing except look cool and impassive whilst engaging in computer generated mayhem.

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Dunno, seems this and Two Towers are getting the shaft from some people purely because they don't stand up to the originals...middle films of trilogies never (or very rarely) do they are irrevocably different types of film, firsts always introduce all the main concepts, characters etc and all the 'neat stuff' the particular universe has to offer. The second film has the most arduous task of building towards a climax while still expanding on the first and having a conclusion of some sort in its' own right. Then it's just up to the concluding part to round things up, normally resulting in another good movie since it gets all the climactic stuff to show off

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How many genuine movie trilogies can you think of? Many films have sequels but it is rare indeed that a story is conceived specifically to be told in three parts on screen.

Lets set the record straight as well... The Matrix and Star Wars are not good because of all their 'neat stuff'... they are good because they offer a well rounded hero story with a beginning a middle and an end. Had there been no sequels, both would feel perfectly satisfactory as stand alone movies.

Personally, I don't think I have seen a particularly good 'second part of a trilogy' movie. Empire Strikes Back comes closest in my book but is still seriously flawed.

It does however at least allow its characters to grow and change (Luke's path to becoming a Jedi, Han and Leia's relationship). At the end of the Matrix Reloaded, Neo, Trinity and Morpheus remain completely unchanged from the previous film. Likewise with Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Frodo et al in The Two Towers and this is their principle problem.

Physical conflict becomes dull unless it represents the manifestation of personal conflict and the path to growth for the protagonists.

I think the plot is pretty decent, it certainly gives you more to have to follow, question and debate than the average action film does. Admittedly, often you just seem to be waiting for the next fight scene to be setup for you, but if you ever watch any kung-fu type films that's exactly how they progress.

Personally I thought this one was better than the first, but neither of them of are all time great films, they're just good Blockbusters. They do what you expect from an action film, and dare I say it with a little more imagination than most.

Yeah, the fight scenes went on a wee bit too long, but then most of it did, the film would have been much neater edited to 2hrs.

I liked the new twists presented which certainly give you plenty to debate, like, "Is Zion part of the Matrix?", "Who is the mother of the Matrix?", "What was the deal with Persephone's kiss?" and many others.

Someone pointed out on another board that Neo has imbibed several pieces of code so far - not sure what they're all supposed to mean though...

First the red pill
Second the cookie he eat at the Oracle's house
Third was candy he ate with the Oracle
Fourth was persephones kiss

(I think that was the order...) Interesting.

I'm unclear; what exactly is there to make people think that Zion is part of, or another layer of the Matrix?

The whole point of letting people out to Zion is that the illusion of choice that Zion represents has to exist. People need to be able to get out, even if most of them don't realise it, in order to keep the Matrix from collapsing. If Zion were part of the Matrix, that apparent choice doesn't exist, and nothing is solved: The Matrix remains the archetypal closed system in which entropy can only increase (thermodynamic entropy that is, rather than Shannon informational entropy).

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by The Prophet
I'm unclear; what exactly is there to make people think that Zion is part of, or another layer of the Matrix?

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Neo's ability to stop the sentinels basically.

Since his super powers are related to the virtual nature of the Matrix, it might be reasonable to guess that he was still in the Matrix when he did it.

That way, Zion is simply a *different* program designed to give the illusion of escape and conflict for people who were always going to feel a degree of existential angst.

Maybe.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

Neo's ability to stop the sentinels basically.

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Hmm. I'm wholly unconvinced, not to mention the fact that I'm still not entirely sold that he did stop the sentinels. I think even if the squiddies weren't zapped by the Hammer, it's more likely that he's got a piece of his brain stuck in the Matrix at that point.

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Since his super powers are related to the virtual nature of the Matrix, it might be reasonable to guess that he was still in the Matrix when he did it.

That way, Zion is simply a *different* program designed to give the illusion of escape and conflict for people who were always going to feel a degree of existential angst.

Maybe.

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Except that they are still trapped, and it isn't _knowledge_ of being trapped that caused the original Matrix to crash and burn.