Also a factor is Agent Smith. It seemed pretty obvious that he had escaped from The Matrix into the Zion crewmember (name?) and i fail to see how he could achieve that if Zion is infact part of the real world.

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by The Prophet
Except that they are still trapped, and it isn't _knowledge_ of being trapped that caused the original Matrix to crash and burn.

---

No, people wouldn't accept the world presented to them according to Agent Smith in the first film; "Whole crops were lost."

99% of people will accept the current 'world' the Matrix gives them but 1% will feel somehow that something is not right so these people are fed a different fantasy world, one in which they are locked in an apocalyptic life and death struggle, where they are heroes and there is a true villain... and to tie it all together they are fed the mythology of the one by the Oracle who is the mother of the Matrix.

Agent Smith infected Bane with his code when Bane and Ballard were running back to their hard line with the Oracle's message. He overwrote Bane's Matrix self - his mind - as he tried to do to both Neo and Morpheus, and then that Smith was downloaded to Bane's organic brain through the phone connection to the Caduceus. We see this happen.

The Agents exist purely to keep the rebels on their toes, and in general clearly do not ask questions. Smith on the other hand was obviously going screwy to start with. His intent was to destroy the Zion mainframe and wipe out the rebels - which is clearly _not_ part of the Architect's plan - so that there would be no need for Agents in the Matrix. Now he knows how to destroy the Matrix altogether and wipe out humanity, which is like a bonus prize.

As to Agent Smith's version of why the first Matrix failed, the Agents clearly don't know the plan, and moreover, Smith did not know that there had already been several Ones in the past. The Architect tells Neo that the first Matrix failed because there was no 'out', even though no-one knew they were 'in'.

Also, if Zion were still in the Matrix, they wouldn't need to send an army of Sentinels to destroy it. Everyone in Zion would still be hooked to the machines; they could just unplug them once they were done with it, then send a couple of bots down the access tunnels to sweep up before the new tenants arrived. I don't know about you, but I feel this would make for a lousy third movie.

Moreover, the only narrative reason I can think of for a Zion-is-the-Matrix plot would be as a gratuitous plot twist to have either the Brazil 'still trapped' ending or the Logan's Run 'sunshine and Peter Ustinov' ending, either of which would just be really lame.

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by The Prophet
Moreover, the only narrative reason I can think of for a Zion-is-the-Matrix plot would be as a gratuitous plot twist to have either the Brazil 'still trapped' ending or the Logan's Run 'sunshine and Peter Ustinov' ending, either of which would just be really lame.

---

Whereas any of the following are of course not even remotely lame:

A computer program overwriting itself onto someone's organic brain...

Either Neo having super/magical powers in the 'real' world or...

The cliffhanger ending implying he does only to have it turn out it was an EMP after all.

The very fact that things we were told as fact in the first movie now have to be *explained* away demonstrates what a **** poor job the Wachowskis have done on the sequel and reveals how ludicrous is the claim that they always intended a trilogy.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

Whereas any of the following are of course not even remotely lame:

A computer program overwriting itself onto someone's organic brain...

---

The technology in the hovercrafts uploads - or at least connects - a person's personality into the Matrix as code. If - and this is the huge if, not the sentient program being downloaded into an organic brain - the human brain can be interfaced directly with a computer server, then it can be infected like any other system.

---

Either Neo having super/magical powers in the 'real' world or...

The cliffhanger ending implying he does only to have it turn out it was an EMP after all.

---

It is never implied that he has 'magical' powers. It is implied that - if it wasn't the EMP - having touched the source, he now has a permanent connection to the Matrix. Call it an induction loop, call it psychic abilities , call it an implant; whatever it is in his brain that makes him special in the Matrix, it's still less lame than sunlight and Peter Ustinov.

Not that there's anything inherently lame about Peter Ustinov, or about the endings of Brazil and Logan's Run (aside from the jumpsuits); they just don't belong here.

In my not-so-humble, of course.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I believe it was the EMP, and that the same EMP caused Neo to pass out.

---

The very fact that things we were told as fact in the first movie now have to be *explained* away demonstrates what a **** poor job the Wachowskis have done on the sequel and reveals how ludicrous is the claim that they always intended a trilogy.

---

Well, duh.

To be honest, I think that most of the dislocations are self-explanatory once you accept that the only representatives of the machines in the first film were just ill-informed lackeys. Nevertheless, having kicked out the total twist in the setting - the One is the machines' tool - in this film, to give us another one in the next part would just be indecisive to the point of pure lameness. The twist in part three should be about how they deal with the situation, not about the situation itself changing.

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by Maffrew
Also a factor is Agent Smith. It seemed pretty obvious that he had escaped from The Matrix into the Zion crewmember (name?) and i fail to see how he could achieve that if Zion is infact part of the real world.

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because the human brain works on the principle of electrical impulses. when a person 'jacks' into the matrix, they are downloading their electrical personality there. when Smith encoded himself into Bain, his electrical program merged with Bains and when 'Bain/Smith' came back to his Bain's real body the Smith program was in control although he was in Bains body

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by nemesis
because the human brain works on the principle of electrical impulses. when a person 'jacks' into the matrix, they are downloading their electrical personality there. when Smith encoded himself into Bain, his electrical program merged with Bains and when 'Bain/Smith' came back to his Bain's real body the Smith program was in control although he was in Bains body

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This makes no sense to me.

My understanding of the whole virtual reality 'thang' runs something like this...

The human brain 'perceives' the world via our five senses. The Matrix operates by sending the brain an artifical set of stimuli which the brain then responds to as if real.

Within the Matrix, an individual also has a representation (akin to an avatar if you like), a digital reflection of the physical. However, the personality remains within the physical brain outside the Matrix, it is not in anyway encoded.

In other words, the world is fake but the consciousness is real and exists in the electrical impulses of the physical brain wherever that resides. The Matrix is the equivalent of a multi-sensory, interactive film so overwhelming that it replaces the real world. I may watch a film but no matter how exciting, immersive or convincing it may be, I am never in it. It remains essentially and permanently other to me.

For this reason, the idea of Agent Smith being able to somehow infect someone's physical body is completely ridiculous.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

This makes no sense to me.

My understanding of the whole virtual reality 'thang' runs something like this...

The human brain 'perceives' the world via our five senses. The Matrix operates by sending the brain an artifical set of stimuli which the brain then responds to as if real.

Within the Matrix, an individual also has a representation (akin to an avatar if you like), a digital reflection of the physical. However, the personality remains within the physical brain outside the Matrix, it is not in anyway encoded.

---

Then why do you need to get to a hardline to jack out? If nothing left the body when the rebels entered the Matrix, they could come out at any time, just by disconnecting; breaking the connection would not kill them, they'd just get the VR equivalent of blue screen o'death and have to reboot their chairs.

The people in the Matrix are utterly immersed, beyond VR; they are interfaced with the hardware. That's why Neo and the orphans can see beyond the projected stimuli to the code and alter it according to their whim and ability; because they are in the system, with the code.

---

In other words, the world is fake but the consciousness is real and exists in the electrical impulses of the physical brain wherever that resides. The Matrix is the equivalent of a multi-sensory, interactive film so overwhelming that it replaces the real world. I may watch a film but no matter how exciting, immersive or convincing it may be, I am never in it. It remains essentially and permanently other to me.

---

For which reason, if the projector breaks down, you don't die. If the train runs towards the screen, the front three rows don't die of shock and cough blood discretely onto their chins. The virtual reality of the Matrix kills, as does premature disconnection, because - the lame 'your mind makes it real' thing of the first movie aside - the 'avatar' in the Matrix is clearly a real part of the person.

---

For this reason, the idea of Agent Smith being able to somehow infect someone's physical body is completely ridiculous.

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As opposed to, say, the rest of the movie? This just seems like an extraordinary point for your suspension of disbelief to break down. I'd understand if you just felt the whole thing was very silly - it is - but why single out this issue?

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by The Prophet
Then why do you need to get to a hardline to jack out? If nothing left the body when the rebels entered the Matrix, they could come out at any time, just by disconnecting; breaking the connection would not kill them, they'd just get the VR equivalent of blue screen o'death and have to reboot their chairs.

---

For the sake of argument (and this is all speculation on both sides), perhaps the human brain can't stand the sudden transition and simply fails. Personally, I think the whole hardline thing is ill thought out, pretty dumb and the reason for it is ultimately 'because it makes the story work'.

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The people in the Matrix are utterly immersed, beyond VR; they are interfaced with the hardware.

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It isn't beyond VR, it is the very definition of a VIRTUAL REALITY. And of course they are interfaced. All that means is that there is an interactive connection between the physical world of the (dormant) body and brain and the virtual world.

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That's why Neo and the orphans can see beyond the projected stimuli to the code and alter it according to their whim and ability; because they are in the system, with the code.

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This doesn't logically flow from your previous statements, it's just a presumption. Nothing in either film suggests that the consciousness of any of the characters ever resides anywhere except in the physical body.

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the lame 'your mind makes it real' thing of the first movie aside

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I love your willingness to discard the lore of the first film when it doesn't fit your theories.

---

This just seems like an extraordinary point for your suspension of disbelief to break down. I'd understand if you just felt the whole thing was very silly - it is - but why single out this issue?

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Because this issue underlies the whole philosophy of the movie. There are lots of things about the Matrix that don't work logically... when did it start (they say they picked the twentieth century) and how does technology and science advance inside it, how do they match new babies with families and if our 'residual self image' is also our real physical appearance then how do family resemblances arise, why don't they just use large docile cows rather than rebellious, intelligent human beings...

However, these things are not at the core of the story, they are background. The core of the story is about interaction between the brain and the perceived world. The first movie is a fable playing with the butterfly dream, or if you like Descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.

Ultimately, what I would like is some internal consistency on this one point and the logic of the Matrix (both the movie and the concept) is destroyed if a computer program can in someway inhabit a human body.

On a less serious note... has anyone seen this before? ter.air0day.com/index.php?script=matrixreloaded

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

For the sake of argument (and this is all speculation on both sides), perhaps the human brain can't stand the sudden transition and simply fails. Personally, I think the whole hardline thing is ill thought out, pretty dumb and the reason for it is ultimately 'because it makes the story work'.

---

If it's a sudden transition thing, they shouldn't just zip out of the Matrix through the phone line, because that's still pretty sudden. Whether you think it's dumb or not, it's clear that they have to enter and exit the Matrix through certain points, implying to me at least that the bit that acts in the Matrix is something more important than a remotely guided piece of code; that it's something you can't survive losing.

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(quotes)



It isn't beyond VR, it is the very definition of a VIRTUAL REALITY. And of course they are interfaced. All that means is that there is an interactive connection between the physical world of the (dormant) body and brain and the virtual world.

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Okay; my bad.

What I meant to say was that they are not merely being fed stimuli then operating controls for their 'Matrix body'. Their physical brains are connected to the Matrix like a client computer connects to a server. There is a direct, two-way exchange of code, rather than the code being exchanged between the Matrix and an additional layer of UI.

On reading the above, I don't think we disagree on this, just on what the 'Matrix body' is supposed to be (if indeed it's supposed to be anything).

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(quotes)

This doesn't logically flow from your previous statements, it's just a presumption. Nothing in either film suggests that the consciousness of any of the characters ever resides anywhere except in the physical body.

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Except for the fact that they have to move in and out through specific points.

Except for the fact that the loss of the Matrix self, or disconnection from it, is terminal.

---

(quotes)

I love your willingness to discard the lore of the first film when it doesn't fit your theories.

---

Whereas you try to hold to everything, except that they have to use the hardlines which is silly and just to make the story work.

For the record, I discount this for the same reason I discount more-or-less everything Morpheus tells Neo in his training: Morpheus is clearly proven to know jack about the Matrix. Moreover, 'your mind makes it real' has always sounded like a lie-to-children: As if it's not something the rebels have time to worry about because they're too busy worrying that bullets kill them, so they've never looked into it in detail.

---

(quotes)

Because this issue underlies the whole philosophy of the movie. There are lots of things about the Matrix that don't work logically... when did it start (they say they picked the twentieth century) and how does technology and science advance inside it, how do they match new babies with families and if our 'residual self image' is also our real physical appearance then how do family resemblances arise, why don't they just use large docile cows rather than rebellious, intelligent human beings...

---

Ah. The Mootrix.

---

However, these things are not at the core of the story, they are background. The core of the story is about interaction between the brain and the perceived world. The first movie is a fable playing with the butterfly dream, or if you like Descartes' 'I think therefore I am'.

Ultimately, what I would like is some internal consistency on this one point and the logic of the Matrix (both the movie and the concept) is destroyed if a computer program can in someway inhabit a human body.

---

Okay. I think I get what you're saying now. I don't think that it's either a plot inconsistency or a sign that Zion is in the Matrix, but I do see why it bothers you.

Maybe it doesn't bother me because I never felt that the original was anywhere near as deep as it was claimed to be. Perhaps I feel less let down because I never saw the original Matrix as anything but a slightly-smarter-than-average action movie, and I haven't been expecting the slightest thematic consistency with the sequels; just an evening of cool, slow-mo kung fu.

Which obviously I got.

I'd argue that the interaction between the individual and reality is vital to the first half of the first film, but the second half is essentially about cool, slow-mo kung fu. Reloaded seems much less interested in the nature of reality, and more concerned with the issue of free will vs determinism, at least when it's not being about cool, slow-mo kung fu.

I think that the second film is much lazier than the first film.

I think that Reloaded does have less to say than The Matrix, and that the Architect's speech makes it pretty clear that the writers have no earthly idea how to say it.

I think that the bulk of the plot of the second movie revolves around what will make for really cool special effects, and allow the maximum cool, slow-mo kung fu.

I understand why you dislike the Smith-in-Bane idea but I still say that 'Zion is the Matrix' is a less justifiable reaction to that than 'this film stinks'.

And of course, I'll still be going to see the next one, and maybe we'll find out then. Maybe I'll be wrong, and Zion will be in the Matrix. I won't mind so much, as long as I get my helping cool, slow-mo kung fu and something other than the Brazil/Logan's Run ending.

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by Lori
On a less serious note... has anyone seen this before? http://ter.air0day.com/index.php?script=matrixreloaded

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OMG I haven't bothered to check that site in so long, thank you

-edit- Errrrrrr ok could one of the techies please check why OMG has come up linked if you have a sec?


(Edited by Staff 11/06/2003 20:26)

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by Lori
On a less serious note... has anyone seen this before? http://ter.air0day.com/index.php?script=matrixreloaded

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ah a funny site has kept me amused many an hour (thank you for posting the url hun i'd lost my bookmark on it )

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Spikeo
-edit- Errrrrrr ok could one of the techies please check why OMG has come up linked if you have a sec?

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LOL ditto but with my "ah" (bisto)


(Edited by bipolar 12/06/2003 10:42)

(Edited by Staff 12/06/2003 10:48)

Hmm, I was sure we'd fixed that quoteing a url bug.. I guess not..

Phew! That was a hell of a lot to read through. Serves me right for not getting round to see the film until this Wednesday, thus refusing to read this thread till then.

OK, I realise that a few of the things I'm going to say have already been said, and I have read every single post so far, but, hey, I want a go...

This:

---

by Funny Web Site
CARRIE-ANNE MOSS
Don't you realize that without any
real goal, this scene is utterly
without tension, regardless of how
cool it is, stylistically?

---

Pretty much summed up the first half of the movie for me. No real tension at all. At the back of my mind we're two niggling thoughts - 1/ How can a computer program transfer itself into Bane's body, while keeping his memory and personality sufficiently intact so that no one notices? and 2/ Who's side is the oracle on?

The line about upgrades was kinda cool. The fight scene with the multiple Andersons had a couple of cool moves. And the freeway scene was mostly memorable, for me, by the sheer audaciouosness it. All I kept thinking was 'they built a highway JUST so they could film this!' Other than that I was pretty bored.

The idea of rogue programs, and the clear implication that this referred to the Oracle, her protector, Agent Smith, The Key Maker, Persephone and Merovingian and his agents, this I quite liked and was a significant plot development from the first film. But other than that I was having a hard time caring about what was going on.

Then came the architect. And all of a sudden things got interesting. Now, I agree with comments about the fight scenes (especially Neo vs The Smiths) going on too long, that the sex scene was unnecessary (and unmoving, I thought), and that CGI was overly relied on and was far too obvious far too often. But I loved the scene with the Architect. It took the doubts initiated by the Smith/Bane situation, and the Oracle's statements, and exploded them, and everything else we thought we knew about the matrix. The one is now a planned for anomaly and plays a part in rebuilding Zion and helping the matrix to perpetuate itself in return for saving humanity. The oracle, although rogue, played a part in making the matrix more believable for humans and thus keeping humans as duracells for the machines. And lots of stuff said in such a manner as not to be clear in its importance, but heavy in potential. That is, a lot of plot development presented in a manner that is not insulting to the intelligence, but actually challenging to it.

Without the Architect this would be a pretty dull movie. Flashy, but dull. And yes, it's more of a Two Towers than an Empire Strikes back in that its sole purpose seems to be setting the scene for Revolutions (and selling merchandise) than in telling a story in itself. Overall, in intriguing film that entertained just about enough to be worth the price, and interesting enough to be worth another view.

So, some thoughts.

I'm with the 'Matrix within a Matrix' brigade. Evidence for the prosecution - 1/ Smith/Bane. Some of the aspects of the Matrix lore are sloppy enough to allow a computer program to enter a human body (the whole needing set phone points to dial out being the obvious example). If this was the case, why would Smith/Bane sound like Bane, not Smith, and presumably be able to interact with colleagues without blatantly giving away the fact that Bane was no longer at home? 2/ The Sentinels. OK, I've not played Enter The Matrix, but I can see no way at all that would be consistent for Neo to stop the Sentinels in a physical world. The idea he is somehow still magically linked to the Matrix without the need of a modem (look mum, no cables!) because he is trapped 'between reality and the matrix' seems like a cover for the revelation that is to be confirmed in Revolutions. And an unexplained EMP blast would be the worst use of Deus Machina since .. I dunno, a very bad Star Trek episode. Seems much more reasonable to Zion as another level of the Matrix, for those humans that cannot accept the sugar pill of the first layer (see what I did there?). 3/ The Architect's speech. This has happened six times before. Zion has been destroyed and rebuilt six times before. And no human knows this. Apparently. The six predecessors agreed to choose (I think these are the right numbers) seven women and thirteen men to rebuild Zion. And there is no record of this. Why would the Architect, the A.I. program that created the Matrix, want Zion rebuilt? Why not destroy it and be done with the rebels? The only explanation is that after the failure of the perfect Matrix, the second, Zion level, was added as a let out for those who refused to accept their senses.

Now, I didn't even think about this next bit until I read it here, but it makes sense to me - The councillor as the last One. That would explain how he got his position, his little talk about symbiosis to Neo, and the council being prepared to go against their Military commander in favour of some hokum with no evidence presented by Morpheus. It would also seem likely to me that the council are the people the One choice to rebuild Zion once it was destroyed, as described by the Architect.

There is one other thought that is dominant for me. All the A.I. programs are trying to manipulate Neo, especially The Oracle and The Architect, and as such neither can be wholly believed in anything they say. The architect clearly wants Neo to fulfil his roll in the eternal cycle that is the destruction and rebuilding of Zion. It would seem naive to assume that when The Architect says that Neo should take the left door that he is being sincere. When you present yourself as the ultimate baddy, telling the ultimate good guy he shouldn't do what you actually want him to do makes a lot of sense. And it is clear in the obfuscating answers that The Architect gives that he has no desire to be straight forward and honest. He just wants to manipulate Neo's actions. The same goes for The Oracle and Persephone. However, I find Merovingian's importance to the plot less easy to see. Maybe he is manipulating, maybe not.

So, assuming all the above is correct, we still have enough questions to keep us eagerly awaiting Revolutions. Is The Oracle the mother of the Matrix, or is this a ploy to make Neo distrust her? What is the role of the Agent Smiths? Are they the true anomaly that will bring down both layers of the Matrix in that The Architect has not included them in his calculations? Will Neo break the cycle, or fulfil his role as collaborator?

And one last one that I have heard no one else wonder out loud - If Zion is the second (and hopefully final) layer of the matrix, is it possible that Neo is actually a program himself, and not human at all?

Loads more thoughts along these lines, but I've gone on waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long already. Adios!

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by Jayjay

I'm with the 'Matrix within a Matrix' brigade. Evidence for the prosecution - 1/ Smith/Bane. Some of the aspects of the Matrix lore are sloppy enough to allow a computer program to enter a human body (the whole needing set phone points to dial out being the obvious example). If this was the case, why would Smith/Bane sound like Bane, not Smith, and presumably be able to interact with colleagues without blatantly giving away the fact that Bane was no longer at home?

---

As near as I recall, Smith-Bane didn't say anything; just stood at the back looking moody and cutting himself with a knife. The only reason no-one noticed was everyone was too freaked out; besides, he was a background character in the Matrix and had no personality to start with.

---

2/ The Sentinels. OK, I've not played Enter The Matrix, but I can see no way at all that would be consistent for Neo to stop the Sentinels in a physical world. The idea he is somehow still magically linked to the Matrix without the need of a modem (look mum, no cables!) because he is trapped 'between reality and the matrix' seems like a cover for the revelation that is to be confirmed in Revolutions. And an unexplained EMP blast would be the worst use of Deus Machina since .. I dunno, a very bad Star Trek episode. Seems much more reasonable to Zion as another level of the Matrix, for those humans that cannot accept the sugar pill of the first layer (see what I did there?).

---

Except that the problem is stated to come from the lack of choice, even when the humans don't know that they have a choice or not. The Zion-level would therefore still suffer the same failings as the primary Matrix.

Now, the destruction of Zion could then be seen as a reboot to avoid this problem, but there's the problem of the 750,000 Sentinels. You could assume that the appearance of the Sentinels is intended to act as a prod for the One to get bizz-ay, but why bother attacking Zion and having the big fightiness we have seen in the trailers for Revolutions. If it's a part of the Matrix, with everyone still in their pods then the machines should just switch them off.

Any other way of finally eliminating Zion - if it is a level of the Matrix - is purely for cinematic effect, and the struggle by the people of Zion thus becomes a futile, farcical exercise, as they struggle to defend themselves against a false threat, while the architect giggles to himself and waits to hit the reset button once he gets bored.

---

3/ The Architect's speech. This has happened six times before. Zion has been destroyed and rebuilt six times before. And no human knows this. Apparently. The six predecessors agreed to choose (I think these are the right numbers) seven women and thirteen men to rebuild Zion. And there is no record of this.

---

Actually, there is. Recounting the legend of the Prophecy, Morpheus says that when the Matrix was first created, a man was born inside with the power to control it; a man who freed the first of them, and whom the Oracle prophecied would be reborn to free humanity as the One.

Clearly, this man is the previous One, and what the rebels legends record is what he told them: You are the first to be freed; the Matrix has just been created.

As for records of the previous Zion, who would keep them? If Zion is destroyed, who would remember? The people of Zion are dead. The people in the Matrix never knew it existed.

---

Why would the Architect, the A.I. program that created the Matrix, want Zion rebuilt? Why not destroy it and be done with the rebels? The only explanation is that after the failure of the perfect Matrix, the second, Zion level, was added as a let out for those who refused to accept their senses.

---

Because Zion is something they know how to deal with. It's their release valve. The One creates the new Zion to be the illusion of freedom, and when all is done and the circle rolls around, the machines destroy it.

---

Now, I didn't even think about this next bit until I read it here, but it makes sense to me - The councillor as the last One. That would explain how he got his position, his little talk about symbiosis to Neo,

---

Except that the war has been going on - this time - for a hundred years, and the Councillor isn't that old. Also, the previous One died and his return was Prophesied. That could be got around, but Morpheus' date of one hundred years presumably comes from Zion's records.

Admittedly, if Zion is part of the Matrix, its records are suspect like everything else.

---

and the council being prepared to go against their Military commander in favour of some hokum with no evidence presented by Morpheus. It would also seem likely to me that the council are the people the One choice to rebuild Zion once it was destroyed, as described by the Architect.

---

I don't think that the people chosen to begin rebuilding are supposed to be in on the deal. They're the first of the new Zion, and are told that the war is just beginning; that the Matrix is just beginning. Thus the legends that Morpheus knows are started. I'd say they go with Morpheus instead of Lock because a) they've been raised on legends of the One, and b) unless I missed a plug somewhere along the line, Lock is a child of Zion, not an escapee; he doesn't believe that the war will be won in the Matrix by the One, the Council does.

---

He just wants to manipulate Neo's actions. The same goes for The Oracle and Persephone. However, I find Merovingian's importance to the plot less easy to see. Maybe he is manipulating, maybe not.

---

I don't know quite what he's up to, but I would guess from his name that the Merovingian used to be quite the shakes in Matrixville, and feels quite put out about his fall from power. His interest in controlling the Keymaker suggests that he wanted to get into the source himself.

Of course, I don't think he's listed in the credits of the next film on the IMDb, so he may not be important at all. Possibly he is Persephone's witless pawn.

---

So, assuming all the above is correct, we still have enough questions to keep us eagerly awaiting Revolutions. Is The Oracle the mother of the Matrix, or is this a ploy to make Neo distrust her? What is the role of the Agent Smiths? Are they the true anomaly that will bring down both layers of the Matrix in that The Architect has not included them in his calculations? Will Neo break the cycle, or fulfil his role as collaborator?

---

I think the Smiths will be the pivotal point, which is pretty telling of the 'Matrix as pre-planned trilogy' claim if you believe the rumour that he only returned because he was so well-received in the first film. They seem to be the only thing no-one expects, although the architect doesn't seem to have voiced an opinion yet.

---

And one last one that I have heard no one else wonder out loud - If Zion is the second (and hopefully final) layer of the matrix, is it possible that Neo is actually a program himself, and not human at all?

---

Well he does seem very...emotionless; unexpressive. Maybe he is a programme. Or maybe he's Keanu Reeves.

On a less flippant note, the Architect does say that he has been altered. He does however say that Neo is still human, and I don't think he is outright lying at any point.

---

by The Prophet
As near as I recall, Smith-Bane didn't say anything; just stood at the back looking moody and cutting himself with a knife. The only reason no-one noticed was everyone was too freaked out; besides, he was a background character in the Matrix and had no personality to start with.

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Sorry mate, you missed my point. Yes, Smith/Bane gets barely any screen time. But off screen he's part of a, what - 5 person?, crew. In small quarters. Don't you think that someone would have noticed that it wasn't Bane in the body? The loss of all personal memory, change in voice, poise? Unless Smith still has access to the totality of Bane's personality and memories, how could he carry this off?

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by The Prophet
Except that the problem is stated to come from the lack of choice, even when the humans don't know that they have a choice or not. The Zion-level would therefore still suffer the same failings as the primary Matrix.

---

My understanding was that the problem of the first matrix was that it was too perfect to be believed. Murphy's law didn't apply. So people found it hard to believe and broke away. However, I suspect many more would have sucked on that sugary reality like they do on a bad Rom-Com. From the discussion with The Architect, it would appear that The Oracle came up with the suggestion that even if they dirtied up the matrix a bit, made it a bit more film-noir, that there would be those who still rejected this reality, wanting something to fight against: pinky lefties like me who see conspiracy everywhere. By creating the second Zion level you create a safety net for those who want more than a soap opera for a life. But more on that in a bit.

---

by The Prophet
...but why bother attacking Zion and having the big fightiness we have seen in the trailers for Revolutions. If it's a part of the Matrix, with everyone still in their pods then the machines should just switch them off.

---

The Zion level exists for those who want to fight against a system. Problem is, all fights must have a conclusion. Either the rebels are victorious or they are annihilated. If not, the fight becomes unbelievable. How come they never finish us off? How come they haven't worked out where we are? Why do we always fail in destroying the matrix? Sooner or later people will refuse the Zion reality and you’re back to square one. If you create an infinite loop of destruction and rebuilding you keep the suspension of disbelief in place. Yes, switching everyone off would be simpler, but why bother? The fight isn't real, no resources are used up, and while the fight goes on, they can still farm the humans. Once switched off they are of no use.

Also, as a side thought, the image of the battery farms of humans is part of the Zion level mythology. It is entirely possible that the reality is something quite different.

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by The Prophet
Actually, there is. Recounting the legend of the Prophecy, Morpheus says that when the Matrix was first created, a man was born inside with the power to control it; a man who freed the first of them, and whom the Oracle prophecied would be reborn to free humanity as the One.

---

However, lets also remember that the source of the prophecies is The Oracle, also known as the mother of the matrix. We can no longer take any part of the prophecy as gospel. As Neo says, how come the matrix still exists?

Also, on this whole "no choice"/prophecy deal. The Oracle is a computer program, as is The Architect. They are a set of algorithms with a set purpose and a set of variables to manipulate. To them, there is no choice, just purpose. They take the variables they have been fed and come up with a series of probable events. If the program is complicated enough these probabilities can be refined down to nigh on certainties. Or prophecies. But with finite variables there are always going to be some that are over looked - like a rogue agent with a megalomania complex, deep hatred for humanity, and a self-replicating program. Events do not always transpire as prophesised. This is the weakness of the programs and the true advantage of the humans.

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by The Prophet
As for records of the previous Zion, who would keep them? If Zion is destroyed, who would remember? The people of Zion are dead. The people in the Matrix never knew it existed.

---

The founders of the rebuilt Zion would. Not all the people of Zion are dead. Why don't they pass this on to those they free, if they are not willing collaborators to The Architect's plan?

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by The Prophet
Because Zion is something they know how to deal with. It's their release valve. The One creates the new Zion to be the illusion of freedom, and when all is done and the circle rolls around, the machines destroy it.

---

Sounds similar to my theory. But if Zion is there release valve, would it not make sense for The Architect to reproduce Zion in a second level of the matrix, where it would have unlimited resources and control, rather than a more difficult reality, where the Architect has no power at all and must depend on the outside resources of the Sentinels?

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by The Prophet
Except that the war has been going on - this time - for a hundred years, and the Councillor isn't that old. Also, the previous One died and his return was Prophesied. That could be got around, but Morpheus' date of one hundred years presumably comes from Zion's records.

---

The only source of the time passed comes from the council and The Oracle, neither of whom can be trusted. Maybe the war has been going for a 100 years, but this includes all six rebuilds. Or maybe its just so much BS, put in place to put the cattle off the scent. As for the dying and rebirth and prophecy stuff, see my comments earlier on the reliability of the prophecies

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by The Prophet
I don't think that the people chosen to begin rebuilding are supposed to be in on the deal.

---

Again, if they are not in on the deal, then why not record that Zion was rebuilt? If Zion is a physical reality then the builders must already be free before Zion is destroyed. they must know of its downfall and its rebuilding. They may not know of the deal with The Architect, but they must at least know of the precious legend of the one, and of the rebuilding of Zion. Yet this has not been passed down to the likes of Morpheus, Trinity or Neo.

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by The Prophet
I'd say they go with Morpheus instead of Lock because a) they've been raised on legends of the One, and b) unless I missed a plug somewhere along the line, Lock is a child of Zion, not an escapee; he doesn't believe that the war will be won in the Matrix by the One, the Council does.

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If the reason they believe is because they are escapees, how come it is so hard to get two volunteers to go after Morpheus and co? As Lock says, why would they take the mission with no reason to believe it will do any good?

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by The Prophet
Well he does seem very...emotionless; unexpressive. Maybe he is a programme. Or maybe he's Keanu Reeves.

---

Point taken. More seriously, though, it is more the ease with which Neo starts to manipulate the matrix, to see the code, and recognize other rogue programs, which clearly the likes of Trinity and Morpheus still cannot do. Yes, it could be all this prophecy malarkey, or it could be that you recognize your own. Anyway, this is really just a shot in the dark. I suspect it is not the case for the pragmatic reason that I cannot see Hollywood making their principle hero a computer program. It would make for too dark an ending to Revolutions. But I still like the idea, anyway...

a great transcript of the architects talk and what it means can be found here,

www.geocities.com/clark_kent0002/

but to all those who think that Zion is within the matrix, the architect very much explians it as being outside the matrix-section sof the transcript are here with the notes being the explanations of the dialoge.
thus-

---------------
Neo: T*his is about Zion *

Architect: *You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated*.......
......*coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.*





(NOTE 5: The Architect speaks of Zion as if it is outside the Matrix)
(NOTE 8: The Architect speaks clearly of the extermination of ZionÂ’s residents as separate from the cataclysmic system crash of the Matrix that will occur if Neo stays in the Matrix and refuses to select the 23 to build the next Zion. ZionÂ’s destruction is, therefore, not related to the system crash of the Matrix, implying both that Zion is outside the Matrix and that the machines, not Neo, will destroy Zion.)
---------------------->
Neo: Trinity



Architect: Apropo, *she entered the matrix* to save your life at the cost of her own.



(NOTE 10: By stating that Trinity “entered the Matrix,” the Architect clearly places “where she was before” in the so-called real world on board the Nebuchadnezzar as outside the Matrix. )

Architect: Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed and the anomaly revealed as both beginning and end. There are two doors, the door to your right leads to the source and the salvation of Zion, the door to your left leads back to the matrix to her and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you are going to do donÂ’t we? Already I can see the chain reaction the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple and obvious truth, she is going to die and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness.



(NOTE 12: The phrase “back to the matrix” indicates that the system crash is caused by Neo’s continued tampering with those who live in the Matrix, causing more and more of them to reject the programming and so, “whole crops will be lost,” most likely as the machines are given no alternative use for them and, therefore, kill them. This phrase “back to the matrix” also indicates that Zion is not a part of the Matrix given that Zion is mentioned distinctly as a part of the alternate choice whereby Neo does not “go back to the Matrix.” This demonstrates that going back to the Matrix does not include going back to Zion and so Zion is not a part of the Matrix. Zion is real.)


Neo: If I were you, *I would hope* that we donÂ’t meet again.



Architect: We wonÂ’t.



(NOTE 13: There is a balance between Neo’s hope and the certain compromise offered by the Architect. If Neo exits through the door his predecessors chose, then he guarantees humankind’s survival, albeit under the Machine’s continued control. If Neo exits through the other door, then He might be able to possibly save Zion, save Trinity, and free the rest of mankind from the Matrix and the Machines (despite the Architects discouraging words to the contrary.) This is Neo’s “hope” and his ultimate declaration of freewill, that humans are not bound to endless cycles of prediction and obligatory responses to programmed stimuli. The information exchange that has taken place between Neo and Agent Smith and has been played up by Smith’s dialog and obsession with Neo in Reloaded may give Neo the unanticipated upper hand, giving him the power to control machines in the real world in much the same way that Agent Smith is able to override human beings in the real world. This may also be why Neo is able to shut down the Squidy Sentinels at the end of the film, as described above.)


such a good theory....one i agree to.

(Edited by nemesis 14/06/2003 23:01)

another great theory about the time line of the matrix films-

This was posted on matrix.ugo.com by MRM, based on a post he read by Dojo.

This goes deep, so follow me if you will:

The original TheMatrix starts with Trinity and Cypher talking, the screen shows "Trace Program" and the date "2-19-98"(19Feb98).

The movie ends with Neo making a phone call, the trace program is initiated and the date reads "9-18-99"(18Sep99)... 19 months have passed!

If you watch the movie again, you'll see that the time sequence implies that they found Neo shortly after that initial conversation (a few months after 19Feb98 at most).

Significant? Yes; I propose that TheMatrixReloaded and TheMatrixRevolutions? (which we know occur one after another), take place between 19Feb98 and 18Sep99.

Here's why:
Only a few months could have passed from the time Morpheus and the crew 'free' Neo to the time Neo is killed and revived in the hallway. Why? for one, Neo's hair barely grows in that time and that's not a trivial observation (it's also obvious that Neo grew out his hair in TheMatrixReloaded which occurs roughly 6 months after he's unplugged).

We also know the WachowskiBrothers? don't put insignificant things into their movies - the fact that they obviously signal to us that 19 months have passed from the start of TheMatrix to the time Neo makes that phone call is there for a reason.

In Reloaded, Neo says that "I wish I knew what I was supposed to do". The phone call scene in TheMatrix, Neo is very sure of what he is supposed to do, "I'm going to hang up this phone and show these people what you don't want them to see... a world without you, without controls and boundries". Why would he have forgotten what to do between TheMatrix and TheMatrixReloaded? He didn't, that last scene in TheMatrix occurs after TheMatrixRevolutions?!

Finally, at the end of TheMatrix, Neo states that "I can feel you now, you are scared". At the end of Reloaded he says,
"Something is different, I can feel them now."

One more thing. A game directed by the WachowskiBrothers? called TheMatrixOnline? is due in 2004 and the timeframe takes place after TheMatrixRevolutions?... and TheMatrix is alive and well in the game.

My guess is that there is no MatrixWithinAMatrix?, they don't destroy TheMatrix because they can't unplug everyone at once and we'll see Neo make that very same phone call at the end of TheMatrixRevolutions?!

i also take a point to this- in the trailer for 'Revolutions' when you see Neo waking from his coma he is wearing the outfit you see him in at the end of 'The Matrix' and not his Sexy coat from 'Reloaded'.(as a costumier i look for these little things! )
what ever the outcome im looking forward to revolutions more and more each day, and i dont care what anyone says!

---

by Jayjay
(quotes)

Sorry mate, you missed my point. Yes, Smith/Bane gets barely any screen time. But off screen he's part of a, what - 5 person?, crew. In small quarters. Don't you think that someone would have noticed that it wasn't Bane in the body? The loss of all personal memory, change in voice, poise? Unless Smith still has access to the totality of Bane's personality and memories, how could he carry this off?

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Well, leaving aside the possibility that when he overwrites the personality some memory remains, I took your point, but you missed mine: He's a background character in the Matrix, and matters only insofar as Smith hijacks him. My faith in the Wachowskis as storytellers is limited.

---

(quotes)

My understanding was that the problem of the first matrix was that it was too perfect to be believed. Murphy's law didn't apply. So people found it hard to believe and broke away. However, I suspect many more would have sucked on that sugary reality like they do on a bad Rom-Com. From the discussion with The Architect, it would appear that The Oracle came up with the suggestion that even if they dirtied up the matrix a bit, made it a bit more film-noir, that there would be those who still rejected this reality, wanting something to fight against: pinky lefties like me who see conspiracy everywhere. By creating the second Zion level you create a safety net for those who want more than a soap opera for a life. But more on that in a bit.

---

Not so. The second Matrix was dirtied up, and it still crashed. The Oracle came up with the idea that a choice needed to be introduced, even if the bulk of the population never became consciously aware of it. That is why the second-level Zion Matrix would fail; because even a dirty Matrix is no good if you can not get outside of it.

Assuming that the Architect never outright lied, and failing that assumption, we might as well all go home on this issue.

---

The Zion level exists for those who want to fight against a system. Problem is, all fights must have a conclusion. Either the rebels are victorious or they are annihilated.

---

They are annihilated. In the Architect's words, Zion's very existence is eradicated.

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If not, the fight becomes unbelievable. How come they never finish us off? How come they haven't worked out where we are? Why do we always fail in destroying the matrix? Sooner or later people will refuse the Zion reality and you’re back to square one. If you create an infinite loop of destruction and rebuilding you keep the suspension of disbelief in place. Yes, switching everyone off would be simpler, but why bother? The fight isn't real, no resources are used up, and while the fight goes on, they can still farm the humans. Once switched off they are of no use.

Also, as a side thought, the image of the battery farms of humans is part of the Zion level mythology. It is entirely possible that the reality is something quite different.

---

Except see above re. a Zion level Matrix would also fail.

Now, I'll admit freely that I missed about half of the Architect's speech in the cinema, but if you Google for it you can find a transcript online.

---

(quotes)

However, lets also remember that the source of the prophecies is The Oracle, also known as the mother of the matrix. We can no longer take any part of the prophecy as gospel. As Neo says, how come the matrix still exists?

---

But I'm not really talking about the prohecy, but about the legend. You asked if/why there was no record of the twenty-three progenitors being led from the Matrix by the one to rebuild Zion: There is, they just don't know that they are _re_building.

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The founders of the rebuilt Zion would. Not all the people of Zion are dead. Why don't they pass this on to those they free, if they are not willing collaborators to The Architect's plan?

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As I say: The old Zion is annihilated; the twenty-three are led to build a new one, from scratch, with no knowledge that theirs is the second, third, sixth rebellion to begin this way.

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Sounds similar to my theory. But if Zion is there release valve, would it not make sense for The Architect to reproduce Zion in a second level of the matrix, where it would have unlimited resources and control, rather than a more difficult reality, where the Architect has no power at all and must depend on the outside resources of the Sentinels?

---

See above, re there must be an unconscious choice to remain in the Matrix. There would have to be a way out of the Zion level as well.

---

The only source of the time passed comes from the council and The Oracle, neither of whom can be trusted. Maybe the war has been going for a 100 years, but this includes all six rebuilds. Or maybe its just so much BS, put in place to put the cattle off the scent. As for the dying and rebirth and prophecy stuff, see my comments earlier on the reliability of the prophecies

---

They start with twenty-three people; in the end they have 750,000. I'd say that a century is a conservative estimate. We've seen children of Zion of at least forty, and unless the machines are taking the risk of compressing time in Zion, that makes at most two Zions a century.

---

Again, if they are not in on the deal, then why not record that Zion was rebuilt? If Zion is a physical reality then the builders must already be free before Zion is destroyed. they must know of its downfall and its rebuilding. They may not know of the deal with The Architect, but they must at least know of the precious legend of the one, and of the rebuilding of Zion. Yet this has not been passed down to the likes of Morpheus, Trinity or Neo.

---

They know the legend of the One, as I said above: He freed the first of them and founded Zion. They don't record a rebuilding because they don't know there was anything before them. They are led out into the wasteland of the sewers, and begin small, eventually creating a whole new city for themselves, four miles under the ground where the machines won't find them.

Hey! Says the One. Let's call it Zion. And hey, there's this Oracle you can go to and trust.

Then he dies, the Oracle prophesies his return. Sixty-to-seventy years later when Zion is almost but not quite big enough to be dangerous and the Matrix is destabilising, up pops the One. The One does his thing, meets the Keymaker, opens the door, meets the Architect, repairs the Matrix and leads twenty-three people out into the wasteland.

While he's working, the machines are busy annihilating every trace of Zion, which isn't too hard. It's four miles underground, if you have them dig the new Zion a few hundred miles away, there's very little chance...

Hmm. At the end of Enter the Matrix, the Logos ducks down a hole into some uncharted tunnels. It just struck me that this might be the way to the last Zion.

Or not.

---

If the reason they believe is because they are escapees, how come it is so hard to get two volunteers to go after Morpheus and co? As Lock says, why would they take the mission with no reason to believe it will do any good?

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Because they are being called on to fight for their home. Also, Soren is pretty quick to answer - poor Soren. I think we should have a moment of introspective silence for the luckless pawns on board the Vigilant: They died so that others might look cool saving the day - and Niobe isn't for reasons of dramatic tension. No-one else answers in the meantime, because then Niobe wouldn't get to go.

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Point taken. More seriously, though, it is more the ease with which Neo starts to manipulate the matrix, to see the code, and recognize other rogue programs, which clearly the likes of Trinity and Morpheus still cannot do. Yes, it could be all this prophecy malarkey, or it could be that you recognize your own. Anyway, this is really just a shot in the dark. I suspect it is not the case for the pragmatic reason that I cannot see Hollywood making their principle hero a computer program. It would make for too dark an ending to Revolutions. But I still like the idea, anyway...

---

Well, clearly the One is in some way different; specifically, his consciousness is altered by the process (according to Mr Architect, and see above re the Architect outright lying), allowing him to see and manipulate the code.