I'm rather disappointed at this as the White Room is the first time I have been to a Convention (unless you count SFX Event) and I was looking forward to being able to take a number of photos (not just of the guests).

One thing I'd like clarified - Is it made very clear that you are not supposed to be taking photos of guests at the parties? ie did the people taking photos at these other Cons know they were in the wrong? The reason I ask is that at the after awards party at SFX event I took loads of photos of the guests - none of them seemed to mind and most actually seemed flattered (especially the less well known guests). There was nothing saying this was not allowed. Did the people accused of treating guests like scum actually know they were doing anything wrong??

the reason SH was saying he was not doing any more Angel cons after White Room is that someone on the message board was sooo pi**ed off at not being able to take a camera where she wanted that she basically said she was getting all of her friends to bombard SH with emails.....she obviously didn't like the rules about when and where you could take pix!! or understand why SH has banned cameras...apparantly at Prom andthe con the week before, people where using flash photography while Andy was wandering around and some of these people took the piccie right in his face..NOT a good way to treat someone......especially considering his heart/lung probs!!!!

It's difficult for me to know exactly what to make of this really as I've only ever been to one con (officially, at least ).

What I do know is that if I was a celeb (which I can't imagine ever happening!) and I was out for a meal or at a party and was constantly being asked for photos or autographs then it would be annoying. However, if I was attending an event where I had been paid a substantial amount of money specifically to meet people then I'd be happy to do it. In fact, considering the amount of money that people had paid to attend I'd be ashamed of myself if I didn't make that effort. Okay, I might have been signing/posing for 8 hours, but as already mentioned, it's hardly strenuous work.

Of course, if someone was barging people away and manhandling the guests then they'd be well out of order, as would people who are putting cameras inches from guests' faces. I can't imagine that this is more than a small minority though. Hardly something to introduce a blanket ban over.

There might be a lot of over-excited teenage fans wanting to meet you or people wanting to have photos taken with you, but I donÂ’t think that this is too much to ask. After all, if you want to relax then why would you go into a room containing 500-2000 people who have paid a fortune to come and see you? YouÂ’d go somewhere away from them. ThatÂ’s just common sense, isnÂ’t it?

What does seem strange though is that the same guests keep on coming back to do more events. I know if IÂ’d been somewhere and felt IÂ’d been treated like scum then I wouldnÂ’t be going back. Ever. Odd that...

Of course, people taking photos in the main hall might hit the sales of official photos, but IÂ’m sure that if that was the real reason for this decision then Sean would have stated as such...

Let's cut through the crap shall we. Sean Harry is permanently on a power trip. He's banning cameras because he can. I'm sure, as has already been said, that most of the guests are flattered with the attention they get because, let's face it, outside of a con, they'd probably not get anything like that sort of attention.

Now, because people have. naturally kicked up a stink about it, as Ethan has said, he's kicked his toys out of his pram and basically thrown a hissy fit, sulked and said he isn't playing anymore.

It's all about him having the power and control over everyone.

He makes out that he is doing all this for the fans. He's doing it because it gets him the kudos and admiration of actors, producers, writers et al. He's shown countless times before he holds most attendees in disdain.

One example? When we were booking into the hotel at Hyperion, there were a few people next to us who hadn't had a room booked despite their protestations that they had. Sean was stood just a few feet back from the reception, he could quite clearly see they were getting quite upset about it. Did he step in to see if he could help, as the convention organisor? Did he buggery.

I know I'm likely to be banned for these comments from any fture Starfury event but I don't intend going to anymore anyway.

Like Spike said, it made me laugh when he said The White Room would be his last Angel con.

How very, very pathetic.

GO WHISTLER!!

(Edited by Ethan 21/07/2004 21:34)

Think to start off Sean can be a bit over reactive but i can understand where he's comming from. I don't particuly like him from the fact that he was rude to me in some of my posts on his website forum and i never got my chariots of war video and no receipt so i cant prove .

Thankfully the two Xena ones of his i went to in 2001 and 2002 well all of his Xena and past ones where a big success he had no problems but the one thing i might agree with him on is that some fans dont respect the fans sometimes. I know if sean asked me to turn off my flash i wud and i did at times when he asked the attendees at the 2 i went too. My gf was in mcdonalds and 2 of the guests were in there having tea Adrienne Wilkinson and Greg Lee, out of interest i asked why didnt you go up to them and have pictures... she said that would be rude and disrespectful as they were eatting there tea peacefuly.

Havent been to any of his previous angel convos so i dont know what the atmosphere is like n if its any different to the xena ones or the ages groups most of the age groups in xena were maybe 20+ and some younger fans and i found them very respectful of everyone's feelings guests and attendees.

Sean has some good points but still little over angry and over reactive maybe? Come on some people travel god knows how far to get to see there favourite actors just for even a day i know i did!

his last con (the first time i heard the rumour) was meant to be bad girls wild boys because he was sick and the doctors ordered he take a break coz the [puss in boots voice from shrek] the doctors said the stress was very bad for his health.[/puss in boots accent]

from what i've been told the guests dont think much of him either. they got snappy with him at Hyperion when he tried to (on various occasions) stop people taking piccers and/or talk to the guests and have made the "twat" comment TO con attendees whether they were just trying to make us laugh or were serious is another thing

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by Whistler
I'm sure, as has already been said, that most of the guests are flattered with the attention they get because, let's face it, outside of a con, they'd probably not get anything like that sort of attention.

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Not wanting to be nasty or anything but a lot of them aint gonna be in a decent film/tv show again.

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by bipolar
from what i've been told the guests dont think much of him either. they got snappy with him at Hyperion when he tried to (on various occasions) stop people taking piccers and/or talk to the guests and have made the "twat" comment TO con attendees whether they were just trying to make us laugh or were serious is another thing

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Oh yeah me and a few other people were at the bar at one event and the actress approached us for a chat (we hadnt got camera's so we couldnt get any pics if we wanted to) and SH got right annoyed. Im sure some of the actors think he is a prat but they are getting paid to be there so the dont care.

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by Kneon LightOne thing I'd like clarified - Is it made very clear that you are not supposed to be taking photos of guests at the parties? ie did the people taking photos at these other Cons know they were in the wrong? The reason I ask is that at the after awards party at SFX event I took loads of photos of the guests - none of them seemed to mind and most actually seemed flattered (especially the less well known guests). There was nothing saying this was not allowed. Did the people accused of treating guests like scum actually know they were doing anything wrong??

---

As a general rule of thumb it's nearly always brought up at least once on the egroup before any con. It's also printed in the con handbooks that you get when you register (have to register to get your ticket/pass to actually do anything) and I'm pretty sure before the parties start it's normally announced over the PA as well.

Granted, even with this someone could quite easily unwittingly miss all these warnings, but I dunno. You'd kinda hope people would have common sense and share the guests (so to speak ) instead of trying to monopolise their time.

Firstly I'd like to say that I appreciate everyone has their opinions on what seems to be a few sudden decisions. Until this month I hadn't managed to attend a convention for over a year (so my personal experience is a little rusty ) and whilst I know there are a lot that don't attend conventions, I would like to stress T21 isn't responsible for your individual views on anything posted about this (but then you all knew that anyway ) Please remember to refrain from any personal flaming.

* * * * *

I do feel sorry for those who have bought tickets to forthcoming events who now won't have the chance to keep pictures as memories. There is a huge online community now where we are all faceless until we manage to get to a meet or a convention. Not everyone has a photographic memory and regardless of how "sad" it may seem, some of us like to keep a photo gallery of people we meet at conventions who we may never see again if they can't afford to make another one.

Yes you can buy pictures with the guests if you choose to (or can afford to), yes most people would like to see guests having casual fun at the disco - but in the same respect the party is for everyone, and not just the guests, and yes I'm sure most are capable of respecting the guests without pushing their luck (and I'm sure Jola will contest to the people at the Eliza signing who felt the need to "push their luck" who boasted about it on other boards afterwards )

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by Amy
My gf was in mcdonalds and 2 of the guests were in there having tea Adrienne Wilkinson and Greg Lee, out of interest i asked why didnt you go up to them and have pictures... she said that would be rude and disrespectful as they were eatting there tea peacefuly.

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Just want to say a quick welcome, I never know how people find T21, and I don't think we've met before (I've never been to the COW conventions )

But you've really hit the nail on the head, it *is* all about respect to the actors/actresses when they are having "quiet time" for example. The thing is not every attendee feels the need to guest watch. I know when I go to a party, I like to watch people having fun throughout the whole hall.

At previous conventions I've attended there's not been any apparent problem with taking photos from a distance in the disco of the guests, providing you aren't interfering with whatever they are doing for fun. In fact I remember at Sector14 2002 (Eclipse?) that I was taking pictures of friends on the dancefloor when suddenly I realised that the lad in the middle of them was Danny Strong. He was really having a ball. His PA was keeping a close eye on him from the edge of the dancefloor and people left him to do his own thing.

Though I do recall a convention that Jola & I were at where J August Richards was dancing with his girlfriend not too far from us, and a couple of girls come up asking to take his picture. In my opinion that is really rude (although J shrugged it off) and unnecessary. In fact we kept a few at bay ourselves for him after that To me, if you manage to capture a guest on camera, it's nicer to see them in a natural pose anyway so that they are enjoying themselves.

But again it is a shame if it is only a handful of people who have bee responsible for the decision. I can see why people are so disappointed as there didn't seem to be any room for compromise to be suggested. It does make me wonder if there were a no guests or no camera poll, what would actually be voted by the public in total? (that's just my mind working)

I've been to conventions where I've enjoyed watching the guests partying, I've been to conventions where the guests have taken over, I've also been to conventions where the guests haven't turned up to the party at all. But I've always enjoyed having my camera to capture the moments that I want. I'm not a camera freak, but when I get home and family and colleagues ask about the event, it's nice to have pictures to show and to name the people I've met (I mean everyday people NOT guests).

Yes there are rules at events. But also when events aren't organised so well (and I'm not talking about any in particular here so chill ) then as soon as attendees write constructive criticism they get jumped on for daring to say anything that could be considered "wrong".

I'm struggling to complete reading the digests and webposts on this particular issue, but it seems to me that many people seem obsessed with only having their cameras about for guest shots .....

You can always notice the group newbies as they open their posts with very timid remarks and if they get shot down for daring to ask questions (that *might* have been asked before) then chances are they'll never post again. It is never good to see a lack of regard to comments on boards. Each individual post with a question should be treated with tact or if necessary a damn good FAQ should be drawn up, afterall the same people don't have the money to buy tickets each time so there will be people with certain questions.

Some people have mentioned issues with hotel rooms and it has to be said that year after year it seems people are still have to ask for confirmations of rooms upto a week before events. Nobody wants to turn up after travelling miles to find out the room they booked hasn't been booked, or isn't where they thought it would be. With events selling out months in advance, surely it is common courtesy for these things to be finalised before customers have to chase for information. This is why more and more people try to book directly with the hotels.

I've had my share of emails ignored and yahoo posts not appear. All most paying customers are ever after is someone who can acknowledge their enquiries, or to have them passed to someone who can.

* * * * *

Not sure what half of the stuff I've posted has to do with cancelling Angel cons (it doesn't probably ) but it does seems to me that with the amount of organisers cramming on the scene now (you only have to see the rest of the convention forum!!) that "customers" have to already choose where they are likely to spend the best part of £400 for their weekend.

Most scifi/cult fans don't limit themselves to one good show so the chances are they will rollover into whatever event suits them next ....


(Edited by Samphirette 22/07/2004 12:34)

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by Amy
My gf was in mcdonalds and 2 of the guests were in there having tea Adrienne Wilkinson and Greg Lee, out of interest i asked why didnt you go up to them and have pictures... she said that would be rude and disrespectful as they were eatting there tea peacefuly.

---

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by Sam
But you've really hit the nail on the head, it *is* all about respect to the actors/actresses when they are having "quiet time" for example.

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I think that's true in McDonalds, or anywhere else away from the convention. They haven't been employed by McDonalds to to appear there so they should be treated like anyone else who's eating there.

The difference at the con is that they *have* been employed to appear there. If they don't want attention from fans then what are they doing there? The evenings may not be part of the specified meet and greet events, but if attendees have hardly had the chance to see any guests during the day because the organiser has made the event far too big then I don't think you can blame them for wanting to get their money's worth later on.

And besides, we live in the real world where a lot of people, especially teenagers, get pant-wettingly excited whenever they're in the vicinity of their favourite stars. It may be annoying, but it's a fact of life. People miss entire concerts because they're screaming through all of it. Some people even camp outside stars' houses If anyone expects a guest to be able to relax and keep themselves to themselves in the main arena of an event where one or two thousand fans have paid good money to see them, they're kidding themselves.

To be honest, I don't think many guests mind. If they did then why would they keep on coming back? They want to mingle and get attention from their fans. For most of them it will be the only place where they get that attention. Of course, some fans go too far and are out of order, but I don't think it's fair to tarnish everyone who wants to have their 30 seconds with the guests at parties with that brush. They're just excited, not disrespectful. As I said before, if the guests wanted to relax, a room containing a couple of thousand of their fans is the last place they'd go, surely?

I do feel sorry for the PAs though. They might have to work 15-20 hours in a day and they get hardly anything in return.

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by DJ Billy
Some people even camp outside stars' houses

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I was young

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by Sydney
as i posted on the White Room thread:

This all sounds very familiar and i'm sure that as soon as the coffers start running a little low there'll be another Angel event announced. Wasn't EoDs supposed to be his last EVER con? Given that this was the con that the 'trouble' started at If he was going to keep to this then he'd have stuck to his guns and quit then.

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I remember when C.O.W.3 was suppossed to be his last con due to his doc telling him to quit..due to stress.awe poor baby, he didnt work a job, just smoozed with guests..kissing their buts to get them to his events. and he had stress! pah!..he has no life outside conventions. as soon as he stops getting money or people talking to him, hell run events again. oh sorry will that get me banned...oh wait i already am!

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by Whistler
Let's cut through the crap shall we. Sean Harry is permanently on a power trip. He's banning cameras because he can. I'm sure, as has already been said, that most of the guests are flattered with the attention they get because, let's face it, outside of a con, they'd probably not get anything like that sort of attention.

Now, because people have. naturally kicked up a stink about it, as Ethan has said, he's kicked his toys out of his pram and basically thrown a hissy fit, sulked and said he isn't playing anymore.

It's all about him having the power and control over everyone.

He makes out that he is doing all this for the fans. He's doing it because it gets him the kudos and admiration of actors, producers, writers et al. He's shown countless times before he holds most attendees in disdain.

One example? When we were booking into the hotel at Hyperion, there were a few people next to us who hadn't had a room booked despite their protestations that they had. Sean was stood just a few feet back from the reception, he could quite clearly see they were getting quite upset about it. Did he step in to see if he could help, as the convention organisor? Did he buggery.

I know I'm likely to be banned for these comments from any fture Starfury event but I don't intend going to anymore anyway.

Like Spike said, it made me laugh when he said The White Room would be his last Angel con.

How very, very pathetic.

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Well if you get banned , youl join a very exclusive club..maybe the banned lot should start running their won events.!
As i said Sean is all about power and control. With cons he has the power and control over the attendees, guests etc. What else has he got after all. Does he actually have a life outside conventions? i doubt it very much.

wouldnt it make more sense for the PAs of the guests to have some sort of signal that the guest could give the PA, to say, im getting abit over welmed here/these people need to back off/ my eyes are burning etc...
maybe a nod of the head, a code word or somthing, then the PA could get the guest out of that situation, and be allowed the authority to do so, ie be allowed to tell an over enthusastic fangirl/boy attendee to please back off now...polite to start of course!
friends i know whove been PA, as well as myself have done this.though most of the guests ive looked after never needed it lol!
Seems common sense..but then Sean never had much of that.

As for the influx of screaming fangirls/boys i think that comes from the shows. Buffy and Angel have a young fan base, full of hormone fueled teens. Shows i was into when i started had an older fan base (Babylon 5, Xena, Stargate) the cons that had these shows didnt have these problems as much..the occasional fan, but not to the extent i saw at say Nocturnal 3K with James Marsters, (Who i saw actively encouraging the fangirls....getting them to compete as such)

There are also some unhappy people on these forums

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by Spikeo
(quotes)

As a general rule of thumb it's nearly always brought up at least once on the egroup before any con. It's also printed in the con handbooks that you get when you register (have to register to get your ticket/pass to actually do anything) and I'm pretty sure before the parties start it's normally announced over the PA as well.

Granted, even with this someone could quite easily unwittingly miss all these warnings, but I dunno. You'd kinda hope people would have common sense and share the guests (so to speak ) instead of trying to monopolise their time.

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Many Thanks for answering my question - it's greatly appreciated.

However I have registered for the White Room and got the leaflet. It states that flash photography is allowed at the start of talks but does not say anything about it not being allowed at any time. If people don't check egroups that just leaves PA announcements (which in my experience aren't always clear).

I really don't understand the problem with taking photos of guests at parties - If it is done politely. For example at SFX event last year Chase Masterson DS9 was going round chatting to everyone. We chatted and I asked if she would mind me taking a photo. She didn't mind at all and if anything seemed flattered. If however I had shoved a camera in her face whilst she was talking to someone else I can understand the problem.

Is it general taking of photos at events that has led to this or is it people being rude and discourteous that has caused it?

I'm most disappointed at not getting the chance to take general (ie non guest) photos.

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by Kneon Light
(quotes)
However I have registered for the White Room and got the leaflet. It states that flash photography is allowed at the start of talks but does not say anything about it not being allowed at any time. If people don't check egroups that just leaves PA announcements (which in my experience aren't always clear).

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I would imagine that the White Room leaflet was pre-printed a longtime before this more recent announcement which only occured this week (as you'll see from the quote in the top post)

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I really don't understand the problem with taking photos of guests at parties

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There hasn't been a problem at most conventions until however the bigger conventions recently seemed to enduce some sort of pack rioting to the stage to get better views for a lot of people

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Is it general taking of photos at events that has led to this or is it people being rude and discourteous that has caused it?

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Its the people being rude but as I've seen somewhere post before, if you have 2000+ people then the percentage of people taking chances or not realising the problem they are causing is probably a lot higher.

I think Nemesis makes a fine point which is similar to what I've said previously that the PAs/security should have the final oompph in these matters and a code word or signal would be ideal.

Obviously it should be pointed out this is just a Starfury rule at the moment.

I recently attended a Wolf event and whilst you weren't allowed cameras at the meet & greet (which is only fair and has always been the case) it has to be pointed out that the guests didn't attend the party (not sure if this was contracted or not)

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by Samphirette
(quotes)I would imagine that the White Room leaflet was pre-printed a longtime before this more recent announcement which only occured this week (as you'll see from the quote in the top post)

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I realise that but what I meant was that if all cameras are being banned altogether because people are breaking an unwritten rule by asking the guests to pose and taking pics at the parties wouldn't it be best to make this a written rule and make it very clear to all attendees that this is not allowed in the leaflet. It has obviously been a rule with Starfury for a while so why not print it. That way anyone doing this cannot claim ignorance of the rules. I feel it's a little OTT to ban the use of cameras in the hall altogether without first making the rules clear in the pre-con leaflets.

Anyway thanks for answering my points. I still intend to have a great time at the White Room with or without a camera!

quote tags corrected

(Edited by Staff 01/08/2004 00:24)

Lets face it, most people won't have a clue about this new rule if they don't go on these forums, so I highly doubt that this no photo thing will stick especially seeing as I can't really see a steward taking your camera off you especially during the discos, they'll either be getting drunk or preparing for the next day of queue control.. I've never takena photo of a guest at night except form afar or if they are on stage, the nights mainly about fun and fun is taking pictures of your mates making fools of themselves.

Does this rule ban photo taking from guest talks???? That would be crap especially at the white room as there isn't going to be a video so it might be nice to have something to remember our time by, we're not always gonna have the memory of a 17 year old, so pictures would definately help.
You'd think that it'd be allowed during the day, cause the guests will expect it after every other con they've been to.

Usually I don't take photos anyway cos they come out crap, don't know how that works when you're practically 6 yards from the guests, I really have to upgrade to a non disposable camera, possibly with a zoom so I don't have to commando roll to the front.