All good points, Inc.

I've just had a look at the 2001 league tables, which you can see here.
At GCSE level, the vast majority of the schools at the top of the table are actually selective grammar schools. This changes quite radically at A-level, where the vast majority are fee-paying (although still selective of course).

I've also attempted to do some research into how much independent schools actually charge. Main conclusion - they have really badly designed websites. The only school I can find near me which actually had the fees on their site charges £5232. I have no idea if this is typical, but it is somewhat more than the £3500 figure Cat used (btw, what's your source for that figure?).

So, the only concrete conclusion I can draw is that schools which select their pupils on aptitude will almost inevitably achieve higher results. Well duh.
This, of course, takes no account of the concept of 'value added' (measuring pupil performance relative to their level of achievement when entering a school) which I would argue is a more accurate reflection of how well a school is actually performing.

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I discovered this morning that £3500 is spent per child on education.

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Is that per term - because for a private school you are looking at that per term - with there being 3 terms per year.

Education does seem to very much depend on the quality of the pupils (and ergo their parents). I also think good teachers, perhaps, would gravitate towards schools where they know the pupils are well behaved and motivated - surely that provides more job satisfaction.

My children go to an excellent school which is Grant Maintained - therefore not funded by the LEA. The majority of children are from 'professional' families (I am a single parent so I think I can get away with that one!! They also use that term in the OfSTED report!). There is a lot of involvement from parents.
The previous school they went to in a London LEA was pretty good, but there was a lot of parent involvement, a lot of 'professional' families, and most of the children appear to have been well cared for and supported by their parents.

I just wish some of these parents whose children are disruptive horrors would realise that it's their job to raise their children and teach them decent behaviour patterns and manners - not leave it till they start school and expect the poor teachers to do the bloomin lot (and usually with the parents complaining bitterly about it!!)
I really enjoy spending time with the girls helping them with their homework - we have good fun, and it fills me with pride to see how well they are progressing, how much they know and how clever they are (and they are also beautiful - so I'm biased - I'm their mum!)

I quite like the idea of classes to teach parents how to behave and support their children and their teachers - kids don't come with a manual! Didn't I read somewhere that they were suggesting that for the families of disruptive children???

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by Green_Amber


I quite like the idea of classes to teach parents how to behave and support their children and their teachers - kids don't come with a manual! Didn't I read somewhere that they were suggesting that for the families of disruptive children???

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Yes there was some mention of this. I have to ask though , is it most peoples opinon that disruptive children come from disruptive familys?
If the answer to that is yes, then surely if these parents basicaly don't care what their children get up to, they arn't likely to attend these classes. If so well then what happens next?
If the answer to that is no, then the parents are probably doing all they can to support and aide the teachers and Eduction Dept in helping their children to conform to school rules and maybe they wouldn't appreciate "Parent Craft" lessons. They are being Good Parents in seeking help and working with the schools.

Sange - honey I know you have problems (very specific one's) and you do all you can to get the sorted. I think you're fab. the one's I was referring to are, sadly you're right, the one's who wouldn't bother to go anyway.

I wouldn't ever say no to parenting classes - it's such a challenging job that I could do with some support and advice on occasion - in fact I have investigated 'Positive Parenting' classes, and my 2 are angels compared to a lot of children!

*huggles*

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by Sweet-Sange

Yes there was some mention of this. I have to ask though , is it most peoples opinon that disruptive children come from disruptive familys?

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I think children can be disruptive for a variety of reasons.

As with all things, both nature and nurture are factors and bad family backgrounds are more likely to lead to children with learning difficulties.

However there are genetic factors that can't always be avoided such as hyperactivity.

Dan - I agree with the use of value added rather than objective measures of school achievement. My 6th Form would never have topped the league tables for results but was very highly ranked for value added because the kids it taught were often coming in with little education.

It is trickier to do this with GCSE's though since assessing the basic ability of the students pre exam is harder.

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by Incandenza

However there are genetic factors that can't always be avoided such as hyperactivity.

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Thanks Inc I was hoping someone would pick that up, something I have to live with day in day out, its easy to bunch all disruptive children into one group but as you have pointed out thats far from the case.

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by Inc
I would like to see the analysis of government funding versus private funding for myself before accepting that your basic comparison is fair.

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This is based on BBC Breakfast and the figure they gave out a few mornings ago.

I base the current fees on my niece's school (which used to be mine), While in junior school she pays under £3500 per year and in senior school she will pay more, it averages out to about the same.

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by Inc
Fees are not the only income streams available to private schools who can receive sponsorship, private patronage and who fund raise from parents for specific needs and for general ones.

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All schools are free to fund raise. And our facilities wernt that grand, we had to take a coach or walk to the local sports field most sports lessons. Our computers came from these supermarket promations. we wernt a rich school but all the pupils were encourages to funr raise by being sponsored for various things through out the year.

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by Dan
I've also attempted to do some research into how much independent schools actually charge. Main conclusion - they have really badly designed websites.

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This is because they want to rope you i before they hit you with the fees!!

Some private school will cost £30,000 per year (with boarding costs) but most are the little schools that charge similar fees to above. If they all cost over £5,000 there would be fewer pupils able to afford it and therefor the school would go under (this happened to another local private school).

The source for my figure is the average of my nieces school fees. Nursery is around £1500 (depending on the year) rising to £4500 in the final year (ie, 16). (see they also break you in gently, gradually building the fees up year by year)

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by Dan
So, the only concrete conclusion I can draw is that schools which select their pupils on aptitude will almost inevitably achieve higher results. Well duh.

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But in my school year alone we had 4 people with learning disabilities. I alone was 2 yrs behind their so called standards yet they still accepted me.

My nieces acceptance test at 3 was being able to count to 10 and recite the alphabet. Hardly brain syrgery.

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by Green Amber
Is that per term - because for a private school you are looking at that per term - with there being 3 terms per year.

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No, thats per year. I'm not talking about Eton here, i'm talking about the little schools.

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by In a State of Dan

I've also attempted to do some research into how much independent schools actually charge. Main conclusion - they have really badly designed websites.

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I know a number of schools let some of their younger students loose on the school website, with varying degrees of success. I don't know whether this is the case with the ones you've been looking at?

I go to an independant school.

It's about £2700 a term plus bus fees for a Year 11 girl but boys pay more cos it used to be a boys school.

There are max 16 in a class and in a few lessons there are about 7 of us.

The facilities are pretty good and in lovely surroundings. The staff do seem to care.

Next year I'm going to a state college for 6th form that has a good reputation and max class size of 15.

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By Cat
Why cant we expect the same results from state schools then?

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Not all state schools are in catchment areas containing children who have an “average” intelligence level. (Betty Boop – if you want to discuss what exactly intelligence is, I’ll see you in another thread hon ) You can only help a child to realise their potential… the best teaching in the world will not make a child more intelligent! This is a philosophy which has seen me through many bad days.

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By Inc
Children from wealthy/privileged families are more likely to have received parental support and interest for their education. Children from this background are more likely to see education as useful and have an aspirational mentality.

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Agreed.

*disclaimer – not meant to offend anyone and what follows is my own experiences. Obviously not to be generalised, just food for thought.*

In the catchment area of my school we have a significantly larger than normal rate of parents who are illiterate. Last year I had 4 parents who attended my parents evenings. I have homework completed regularly by the children of those 4 parents. Those 4 children, along with 2 others are the highest achieving children in my class and are above the national average right now (fingers crossed they stay there.)

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By Dan
This, of course, takes no account of the concept of 'value added' (measuring pupil performance relative to their level of achievement when entering a school) which I would argue is a more accurate reflection of how well a school is actually performing.

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Of course it is! What a shame Ofsted and other key agencies have only recently started using that as a more reliable measure of a school’s success. I have to say in my defence, On entry to reception class (aged 4-5) a lot of my children were scoring the lowest possible grade in *every* aspect of their development. By year 6 (aged 11) about half are achieving national averages. The VA my school provides is exceptional.

However, the media presents only league tables where schools are compared unfairly and as a result, parents and the rest of the general public often get a biased view of schools in their area.

There is a statistical analysis that every school receives (PANDA), where the children’s (and therefore the school’s) performance is compared to similar schools (in size, social status of catchment area and so on). After reading our position in the league tables, the PANDA can *really* make you feel better!

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By Green Amber
I quite like the idea of classes to teach parents how to behave and support their children and their teachers - kids don't come with a manual!

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It’s a great idea in theory, but as you said further down, often you find the parents you *know* would really benefit, don’t turn up. IMHO it’s about breaking down barriers… (generally) parents do not like to appear to need help. Adult literacy and numeracy classes I’ve been involved with have very tense atmospheres…people are uncomfortable admitting their weaknesses, especially to people who they see as much more capable.

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By Cat
All schools are free to fund raise.

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Yes, that’s true, however, the community has to value the education of their children before they will participate. It’s not always ideal. My school has a big annual event where year 6 children perform a musical before their SAT’s. It helps keep the fun in school and they really enjot it. They perform it at a theatre in the nearest large town and usually it’s sold out. The children write to local MP’s and what not to try and sell more tickets. Sometimes you have to take your fundraising out of your area and do something a little different. Sponsored walks just do not work for us!

My own view as to why state schools are often seen as performing poorly compared with private schools, well, feel free to pick it apart. If children of varied abilities were distributed evenly across the country, so that each school had an intake that was exactly the same, (based on intelligence here) then if the results were *still* showing the same trends, the question why? would have more validity.

As it stands, that’s not the way it is, there are areas of severe social deprivation, and without trying to tar people with an unfair brush, unfortunately many schools in those areas face more challenges than your average school.

In support of the question over fees: I live in Bristol, which has the most independant schools in the country outside of London. I've seen the figures of the fees for a lot of them. I'd say £3500 a year is a fair modal figure, but certainly the lower end of the scale.