Well, I don't think it can be a good thing, although from what I remember hearing when the guy was assassinated, although very right-wing on immigration issues he was pretty liberal on a lot of other stuff (which is probably to be expected given Dutch culture).

However, it is yet another example of the rise of isolationist far-right politics and particularly when taken in conjunction with Le Pen's election result and the election of BNP local councillors over here (among others) is pretty scary.

(Edited by White Hart 16/05/2002 13:49)

What is going on in the world?

I'm not suitably up on politics to feel comfortable commenting on the implications - but I do feel very sad about what seems to be a growth in far right politics and all the implications of that.

People are people - we're all the same under the same sun.

Pim could hardly have been called far right, defeletly not compared to Le Pen.
Besided that, they still don't know why the killer did it so it could just as well have been a personal vendetta like most other murders. Still bad, but you can't call it an attack at democracy if he wasn't killed for his political view.
(I'm more left-wing btw)

That's one of the things that's intrigued me about Pim Fortuyn. Every time I see his name it is surrounded by terms like 'Populist' or 'Far Right Leader'. The success of LPF is being linked to the recent relative success of Le Pen and the BNP, as well as the neo-Fascist party in Italy and Haigler (Sp?) not so long ago in Austria. Now, while I disagree with LPF's views on immigration, and have concerns about their language on crime, integration and the rest, from what little I've heard about them, the situation seems a little more complicated than that.

I do believe that he was, and his party is, racist. But that doesn't make him far right. What were his views on women's or gay rights? Was he a social authoritarian, or a liberal? Again, the information over here is sparse but he definitely seems to have been a liberal.

So why is a racist liberal being labelled far right? Is it because people cannot connect the two? There is nothing new about racist liberals and socialists, and there is no point denying it.

Racism is a serious problem that needs to be tackled, but we're not going to do it if we pretend that racists only come in jackboots and a Hitler fetish. This isn't a sign of the rise of the far right in Europe, but of racism. Why don't we try dealing with that?

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by Jayjay

What were his views on women's or gay rights?

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Not sure about the women, but I'd imagine he was pretty liberal about gay rights as he was openly gay!

As for the rest of his and his party's policies, The Guardian did cover this quite extensively. I know there's an article on their site today about the elections and the PFL party which will probably have links to earlier articles about their policies.

www.guardian.co.uk - BTW

Yes, I know he was openly gay. As well as the fact that one of his problems with Islam was his view that they were against women's rights, thus suggesting he is for them. The question was at least half rhetorical.

As for the guardian, I've tried there as well as a few other sites, and I can sum up all the data on LPF policies here:

Want strict immigration quotas.
Believe Islam is a backward culture that is against traditional Dutch values of sexual liberalism and women's rights.
Believe 'Holland is full'.
Believe immigration is behind crime rate and rising waiting times in hospitals.
Want zero tolerance of crime.

And that was about all I could find. Mostly sound bites and no details. Oh, and lots of references to being political novices. And being far right.

You may not like the result... but look at the turnout! Wasn't it something like 80%?

A Very good turnout, well done you Dutch people

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by Jayjay
Racism is a serious problem that needs to be tackled, but we're not going to do it if we pretend that racists only come in jackboots and a Hitler fetish. This isn't a sign of the rise of the far right in Europe, but of racism. Why don't we try dealing with that?

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True, and pretty much what I was trying to get at. That'll teach me to post in my lunch hour when I don't really have time to consider what I'm saying

He's not your textbook Fascist, but it's still a very worrying sign. I also think that it's very easy to lump him with the classical right wing because the main unifying force in modern right wing politics is racism and staunch anti-immigration policies. As the Political Compass showed, political position is made up of a number of factors.

I stand by my assertion that I feel that the election result is worrying. It may be less worrying than Le Pen's degree of success. It may be more worrying. There are none of the policies that alienate 'Middle England' or equivalent in classical fascism, just an appeal to a cause dear to too many people's hearts - to keep 'their' country 'theirs'.

(Edited by White Hart 17/05/2002 07:01)

I'd actually suggest the success of LPF is much more worrying than that of Le Pen or the BNP. Le Pen has cashed in on the inadequacies of the French List system and general apathy over the two real candidates (one corrupt but suave, the other brilliant but boring/straight-laced). The chances of him getting a good result at the final hurdle is minimal. The BNP is more worrying than Le Pen, but the scale so far is tiny. LPF have had a huge success at the election, and more worryingly they have a mainstream appeal - they aren't your stereotypical nazi boot boys, a la Le Pen and the BNP. They are racists, not fascists. And their success might appeal to other racists, to tone down their language and concentrate solely on race. Which could lead Europe into a very isolationist position.

But this could be a storm in a teacup...

When a moslim religious leader publicly states that homosexuality is a disease I really can't blame Pim for having a grudge agains moslims.

I think you should also not forget that the second man of LPF is black...

(Edited by The Noid 17/05/2002 21:35)

Racism isn't only a white problem. How else do you describe a party that believes Islam is backwards and tars all members of one culture with the same brush?

Heh, you where just too fast for my edit
There have been several occasions of moslim religious leaders making rasistic and outright insulting statements. So I can't blame someone being insulted for pushing back.

But the same can be said for Christianity or Judaism.

Should we ban all Orthodox Jews from entering the country because of their religions views on homosexuality? Or their belief that they are God's Chosen People? Catholicism and most forms of Christianity see homosexuality as a sin (see Deuteronomy for some of the reasons). Are the LPF going to ask all Jews and Christians to assimilate with 'Dutch' values, even if it means going against their religion?

I can understand why some people are reacting the way they are, but racism is still racism. And it seems that it is OK to target Islam, as it is seen as an alien religion - ie.- not European. Surely we should be looking to embrace other religions and asking only that they tolerate people with different opinions, just as they should tolerate them.

Yes, I don't have much time for Islam, Christianity or Judaism. All their texts describe me as an abhorrence and state that I will be punished for it after my death. But if someone wants to follow these religions that's their business - just as who I sleep with is mine.

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by Jayjay
Racism isn't only a white problem. How else do you describe a party that believes Islam is backwards and tars all members of one culture with the same brush?

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Many leaders in predominently Islamic countries believe that the western world is evil I see that as exactly the same.

And many don't. Plus two wrongs don't make a right. Like I said, you don't have to be white to be a racist, doesn't mean we should respond in the same manner.

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by Jayjay
And many don't. Plus two wrongs don't make a right. Like I said, you don't have to be white to be a racist, doesn't mean we should respond in the same manner.

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No, but if islamic people take it here, there should be a response. That's what a lot of people feel, and Pim voiced that feeling...

I don't agree with it either, but it did get him a lot of votes and now we have a horde of newbies in perlement and we have no idea what they're gonna do...

Damn, this is a tricky subject.

I don't think disagreeing with the teachings of a particular religion, or indeed calling them 'backward', is necessarily racist. In fact I think the term could be applied to most religions to some degree. Where the problem arises is when this leads to arbitrary discrimination against followers of that religion.

Equally, I support the right of people to believe whatever they want to believe, follow whatever religion they like. The problem arises when the expression of those beliefs infringe on other peoples' rights. Now, one can argue that the beliefs of certain people pretty much entail this happening, but I'm not gonna do that here..

Bottom line is, I see both happening everywhere. I find it upsetting and worrying for the future, and I think the election in Holland, although the result was apparently somewhat abnormal in the wake of the murder of Fortuyne, is another cause for worry.

Noid, I also can see why people would react that way, which is what scares me. Especially after the horrors that happened in New York and at the Pentagon last year on September the 11th. It's something that could quite simply spread across Europe, especially Western Europe.

And yes, there should be a response, but not the one advocated by LPF. Enshrining the Human Rights Act in the form of a Bill of Rights would seem the best option to me. It allows for diversity (instead of insisting on cultural conformity) and ensures the freedom of the individual. A Muslim can say what they want about homosexuality as long as they can't actually stop anyone from living their life. Just as someone can be a fascist if they want to, as long as they don't try to restrict my freedoms. Surely that is the heart of the culture that Pim Fortuyn so loved?

Dan, disagreeing with a religion doesn't make you a racist, no. Personally, I disagree with all religions on the basis that they are religions. I dislike all religions, with the possible exception of Buddhism. Neither makes me a racist but a liberal atheist. What does make you a racist is to assert that all members of Islam hold exactly the same values, and to associate Islam solely with the immigrants from Asia. This, as I understand it, is what Pim and his party have done.