Yes I think the firefighters deserve more money.

But, I don't support the strike.
So far 3 people has lost their lives as a result.

Have they actually lost their lives as a result of the strike? Or were they just victims of incidents in which they would have died had the normal fire service been available?

I think they deserve more money definetly. The job they do is really important. And I agree on their strike. It must be hard for them to do.

The figures last night were something like 160 calls to the fire stations, 120 of them were pranks

(Edited by lizzieslayer 14/11/2002 14:03)

No-one can say for sure whether the people who died would have died anyway. According to BBC Online, in at least one case the army were accompanied by firefighters who had broken the strike to help when they heard that a woman was trapped, but sadly she still died later in hospital.

I think the firefighters, and public servants in general, are appallingly underpaid, so I agree that they need more money. And the fact that it's come to this is really down to the government mishandling the negotiations.

I don't support the strike, and feel there's no reason why firefighters (and ambulance crews) should be allowed to strike when other critical infrastructure can't (police, military) (nb I'm advocating that they *not* be allowed to strike, not that the others should!).

In general I have a very low opinion of all strike action, you're employed to do a particular job, if you don't like the job then don't do it. If you want more money then negotiate a pay rise -- what should be introduced is merit based pay, as is used in all private industry, rather than the fixed salary scales which dominate the public sector.

Most firemen work two days on, two days on-call, four days off -- UKP21,000 base salary for a part time job is excellent; they can retire on full pay after 30 years; the fire service indulges in numerous restrictive practices and circumvents many aspects of employment law, all attempts to reform the service have been stomped on by the union. If they really want more money they must allow a thorough reform of the service, rather than bullying the country through strike action, when they know that the poorly trained military fire crews which will replace them a far worse paid than they.

As someone who's taken a 9% pay cut over the last year because of the declining economy, I think that 11% over two years plus above-inflation the third is an excellent offer, and that demanding 40% is simply outrageous and unfeasable.

I agree with Callum , I don't support Strikes. And for exactly the same reasons , it's a job they chose to do, yes they maybe should be paid more for it , but then doesn't everyone think they should be paid more for the work they do?
Teachers , Dr's , Nurses the list is endlist.

I support the strike. I think the government has been far too arrogant towards the general population of this country for far too long and they think they can get away with it, but increasingly the people are taking a stand in their various ways to say NO, and I support them fully. I know 40% is a massive increase and I don't believe that it's attainable but if they demand 40% they're more likely to be offered something reasonable, generous even, and that is the way I believe it should be. The gap between the rich and the rest of us is widening under this New Labour government who are so terrified of businesses moving abroad they pander to appease them and this both worries and disgusts me deeply. I don't care about the economics or the practicalities, I care that people who are doing an honest and decent job in which they can truly say they have made a positive difference to the world are being underpaid (an extra 40% would still see them underpaid) whilst a minority of rich people hold the majority of the wealth and ruin this country (and indeed the world) with their damnable lucre lust, all in the name of economic growth (which is not currently sustainable and therefore deeply flawed anyway).

So I support the strikers, **** the economics, give them the pay they deserve for risking their lives for us on a daily basis.

(P.S. I'm not affiliated with any political groups, these are my personal feelings and not the sprouting of some predictable doctrine in case anyone wondered)

Just to add, I also agree that I think the people who do the jobs that matter should indeed all be paid more. I'd support doctors, teachers, nurses - basically a change to the system where the people who seem to be doing the worst things to the earth are the ones who reap the greatest rewards. I mean, just look at the Iraq situation right now. Is it a co-incidence that George Bush was put in power by the oil companies? That he pulled out of the Kyoto protocol? That he gave the go-ahead to drill for oil in a U.S. national park? That he wants to go to war with Iraq for motives that change daily? Is it a co-incidence that after a war with Iraq a puppet regime friendly to U.S. oil interests would be set up? Companies such as BAE systems will profit hugely from any war in Iraq, George Bush Senior holds loads of shares in an arms company in America, strangley enough, John Major also does in it's European equivalent.

Politicians = Scum
Firefighters, Doctors, Nurses etc = Saints

Don't believe a word the Scum tell you, and support the Saints for all our sakes. Books not bombs. Blah.

Killer, you have a beautifully simple view of the world, I almost envy you.

Saying that politicians are scum is hardly constructive -- politicians at all levels are very poorly paid, work long hours, and have very demanding jobs. The denegration you and many others heap upon people who do their best to run the country is in 99% of cases unfounded.

Even less constructive are comments such as

---

I don't care about the economics or the practicalities

---

Such attitudes will not serve you well, and may reflect negatively on other more practical and informed opinions you may have.

Callum, believe me my view of the world is not as simple as you may think from my comments, I said **** the economics and I'll say now forget about the practicalities, there will always be someone to argue you round in circles in this world however well you prepare your arguments as two people can see the same evidence and come to vastly different conclusions. I am simply sick of debating endlessly and fruitlessley on matters that I believe in, and rather than become involved in a long and protracted argument that isn't going to change your mind or mine, I state my beliefs simply, not to change the world, but to voice my objection to certain aspects of it. I will take part in protests and direct action because simply I have had enough of debating and asking and pleading to the government for change. Trying to use reason and intelligent arguments is an admirable trait, but it achieves very little (just ask the government). When you take to the streets and block the roads with thousands of other people, not debating, but acting, it forces the government to take an interest. They would be extremely happy if everyone put forward their view in clear and polite terms and casued them no friction and no worries, they could ignore these people as they have done in the past and will do in the future. I could arm myself to the hilt with arguments, but I have come round to the opinion that I believe what I believe, and I will act on these beliefs to bring about a positive change. How can I bring about a positive change if I don't understand the issues at hand fully I hear you ask? **** the issues I reply. I knows what I wants and I knows how to get it.

Of course all the strikes we have had in recent years is all Labours fault.

Maggie Thatcher in the 80's very effectively destoryed all the unions power. Now Labour are back in control the unions are regaining their power and the country starts to suffer again.



(...Now ducts out of sight for flying bricks from the picket line )


PS: When do I become a Convert??

(Edited by Vinnie 14/11/2002 15:37)

When we say

---

by killer
I will take part in protests and direct action because simply I have had enough of debating and asking and pleading to the government for change.

---

I guess you condone terrorist activity too?

---

by killer
I said **** the economics and I'll say now forget about the practicalities

---

Well thank goodness you don't run the country then.

and I thought that using offensive language but starring it out like this was against site rules

The firefighters deserve a pay increase.. they too need to live, have families to support etc.. and London Fire Fighters apparently say it is very expensive to live in London (which i believe). I'm not saying 40% is the correct amount, but something needs to be done.. in fact, come to think of it, nurses (who are worth their weight in gold) should be given decent wage increases too, but that's another story.

Yes, it is a part time job.. i'm not familiar with what they do exactly, but i would seem to think that it's a pretty stressful job. Yes, they get call outs to cars that have been set afire, rubbish fires, etc, but what about those huge blazes that claim many lives, or the lives of children.. most often these firemen are the first on the scene and what they must witness must be horrendous, and will surely stay with them. The bad road smashes too, they are usually first on the scene, or have to cut people out of the wreckages, dead or alive. I can't begin to imagine what this must be like. Then there are the morons, who make hoax calls (which could also be a factor in the three deaths last night, apparently there were an excessive amount of hoax calls, so it's possible, these people died because the fire fighters were dealing with these hoax calls when they could've been dealing with a genuine emergency)and lets not forget those who set fire to something, phone the fire brigade and they, answering the call, either get deluged with missiles etc from these absolute idiots, which is something they don't need at all.

The other side of the pay increase argument is, should the fire fighters get what they consider is a respectable wage increase, then what is stopping other parts of the public sector, like the nurses, doing the same?.

I have sympathy for them, i really do.

---

by Callum
Saying that politicians are scum is hardly constructive -- politicians at all levels are very poorly paid, work long hours, and have very demanding jobs. The denegration you and many others heap upon people who do their best to run the country is in 99% of cases unfounded.

---

But of course MPs don't need to go on strike to secure a pay rise, they just vote themselves one..

---

by Callum
In general I have a very low opinion of all strike action, you're employed to do a particular job, if you don't like the job then don't do it.

---

Because, obviously, you'd be thrilled if the entire fire service just walked out of their jobs. This would effectively be a strike anyway, because you can bet that if that were to happen, it wouldn't be very long before they were being begged to come back with whatever incentives were required.

Anyway, it seems to me you have a very simplistic view of the world. 1) The conditions now may well not be the same as the ones you signed up for. If you're advocating that in that case people should leave their jobs, see above. 2) Employers will, in general and as long as unemployment exists, give workers the worst pay & conditions they can get away with. Unionism and collective bargaining is feasible because, actually, the workers do have some power, and can prevent their employers from doing this, by various means, and this power is best utilised through unionisation.

---

If you want more money then negotiate a pay rise --

---

Which is exactly what they have been doing. The strike action is a last resort.

---

what should be introduced is merit based pay, as is used in all private industry, rather than the fixed salary scales which dominate the public sector.

---

I'd be fascinated to hear how you'd determine the 'merit' of a firefighter.

---

As someone who's taken a 9% pay cut over the last year because of the declining economy, I think that 11% over two years plus above-inflation the third is an excellent offer, and that demanding 40% is simply outrageous and unfeasable.

---

Well, maybe you should go and become a firefighter then?

---

by Sydney
I guess you condone terrorist activity too?

---

Entirely depends on your definition, and the circumstances.

But that's quite a leap from 'protests and direct action' to supporting terrorism, and one which some might take offence at.

---

by In a State of Dan
(quotes)
But of course MPs don't need to go on strike to secure a pay rise, they just vote themselves one..

---

On what do you base that claim?

MP salaries are decided by the Senior Salaries Review Board, the fact the salary package is voted on by parliament is a formality.

The current salary for a member of parliament is approx UKP55,000, hardly an unreasonable figure given that the people fulfilling the role should be capable of holding a senior management or executive level position if they were in the private sector (and if they aren't then they shouldn't have been elected).

the fire station is at the end of my road (sort of) and they are all standing outside so everytime we go pass we beep and then my mum today made them all tea and baked little cakes coz she was at home all day, how sweet