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by Vinnie
defending 'innocent' people at tribunals, (surely if it has got as far as a tribunal they must have done something wrong).

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And you don't think there's even the remotest chance that it could be the employer that's done something wrong occasionally? Or that even if the employee has done something wrong, that the action taken against them was unjustified?
Your position is like saying that if someone is charged with a crime, they must have done something wrong, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to have a lawyer in court to defend them.

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The thing is if we have 50%+1 membership it would benefit the whole, but I would feel a bit of a hypocrite if I joined.

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Well, not to be harsh, but I think you would be being a bit of a hypocrite.

Collective bargaining is essentially what trade unions were invented for.

Striking is generally a last resort in that process - after all, what the firefighters are now striking about is the right to enter negotiations about pay and conditions without the government imposing pre-conditions on those negotiations. You may not agree with them, but that's what it's about. It's actually pretty darn rare these days (although there does seem to have been more in the last couple of years, mainly in the public sector), and I seriously doubt any union you would be asked to join would ever consider it as an option anyway.

So.. you could accept that unions do have valid reasons for existing, that they can help workers, as you say, 'benefit the whole'. Or not. Up to you really.

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by In a State of Dan
And you don't think there's even the remotest chance that it could be the employer that's done something wrong occasionally? Or that even if the employee has done something wrong, that the action taken against them was unjustified?
Your position is like saying that if someone is charged with a crime, they must have done something wrong, and therefore they shouldn't be allowed to have a lawyer in court to defend them.

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Ok I may have over simplified it a bit, but for it to get to a tribunal there is a whole procedure (in our case verbal,written,formal,final) to go through before then.

Years ago I needed the help of my Union when I was at work as due to health issues at the time, my employer were being discriminative against me.

All I can say is that the union helped me out no end and I would not hesitate in calling on them again should I ever work for a company that had the union service there.

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by Vinnie
(quotes)
Ok I may have over simplified it a bit, but for it to get to a tribunal there is a whole procedure (in our case verbal,written,formal,final) to go through before then.

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We've got the whole verbal,written,formal, final process at our work as well. However last year sometime I was given a formal warning (and I'd never had a warning before) for a very very minor infraction(a ticket had the wrong peice of information on it). I appealed and contacted the union and had my formal warning quashed thanks to their help. As an aside the reason I got such hassle was because my bosses, bosses, boss didn't like me because I pointed out a mistake he'd made infront of everyone so he was looking for excuses to harass me. That was also revealed at the meeting and for some reason he's now really polite to me whenever I see him..strange that

Union's are really helpful and if I was you I'd join.

Some unions are great, some are not. It depends on who's running them and the attitude of the higher up members. I for instance would never join a union that I felt was 'militant' in its stance however i am not opposed to unions in general.

Do some research, check out their website, try to get a feel for what their main aims are. if it appeals then join. If it doesn't, then don't.

Unions are there to protect the workers and, on the whole, it is a good idea to be in one. Who else is going to look out for you if you are wrongly accused of something or you are in an accident at work, cos believe me, your bosses won't want to know. I'm sorry, but I get annoyed when people say that "all they do is cause trouble by calling strikes". Excuse me? Strikes are called as a last resort, when other methods have failed, and for very good reasons. Unions especially look after poorly-paid workers who could not afford to, for example, pay for legal representation.

Everybody above has already said, quite eloquently, what I also think about unions.

A couple of years ago, pay negotiations at work broke down and my union, the PCS, went on strike for two days as a last resort. No one wanted to do it, we didn't get paid for it, and we stood on a picket line outside my office for about five hours on a freezing cold January day to make our point and get our message across. We were also subject to a few under-the-breathm snidey comments from a manager who didn't believe in striking. Another member of staff was very anti union/strike as well and was quite verbal in expressing that opinion.

But he was very pleased by the pay deal and increase in his pay that he got as a result of the strike....

i wish i had a union for me when i was unfairly given a formal warning without prior warnings (i was a good girl this was my first it should've been a verbal) when my brother died i almost had a breakdown and my doctor gave me 4 weeks off work (i refused the 2 months as it was a couple of months before xmas and they needed me) when i went back my supervisor had moved to a bigger shop and we had a new one and stright off the bat when i got in on my first morning she hauled me in for a formal warning about my time off which was totally wrong and unbelieveable I had just suffered the worst moment of my life and her was this woman telling me that i was wrong for having that time off, it took me a LONG time to pluck up the courage to go back and have it out with her. I couldnt believe my ears when she said that she was giving me a warning for having that time off despite having a breakdown for losing my best friend/brother and a doctors note.
so im for them.



(Edited by EvilWillow 06/02/2003 21:50)

It should also be pointed out that strikes can only be held if the members want it. The law requires a ballot of all members before a strike can be legally held.

As has been said, Unions play several roles. They can, where possible, play a role in collective bargaining - not only for pay, but for working conditions, like health and safety, as well. They can also work on an individual level, providing legal advice when an employee feels something has happened that should not. Whether it is a disciplinary action, as outlined above, or changes in pay and conditions.

At the end of the day a Union is a collective of employees. It is as radical or as progressive as its members. Yes, there are some I would not join (the RMT being an example a few years ago), but far more that I would. Even though my current employer does not recognize trade unions, this only applies to collective bargaining, so I am a member of the GMB for my own protection.

Regarding tribunals, these are not used because an employee has behaved in an unacceptable manner. That is what the company disciplinary procedure is for. Tribunals are used when an employee feels THEY have been abused by the employer. If the employer has acted properly then nothing should come of it. The burden of proof lies with the employee and their representative. Here a Union can provide advice and legal support for an employee who feels they have been mistreated - wrongful dismissal, personal abuse, harrasment, racism, sexism, whatever. This is an important part of protecting our rights as workers and I'm a little concerned at the idea that any employee who goes to tribunal must have done something wrong.

You said yourself that the Unions role as collective pay bargainer would be good for all employees. Personally, I would address your own prejudices against Trade Unions and join. If you don't like how they then behave then get active yourself. The majority of workers in this country are a particularly conservative lot - we're hardly a nation of radicals. If you think the Union is not representing the membership then do something about it. If you are right I'm sure you'll find a lot of support.