The problem with the drug laws in this country is that they are arbitrary, lacking any logic or commonality, and seemingly are designed to appeal to the prejudices of middle England.

Tobacco kills more people than any other drug and is the only drug where consumption by one individual can directly damage the health of another non-partaking person. But the tobacco lobby is powerful and tobacco has always been a preferred drug of the ruling classes.

The article points to the criminal activity surrounding cannabis supply, but in a chicken and egg type situation, there is only criminality because the drug is illegal. Make it readily available through retail sources like off-licenses and there will be little incentive for dealers.

However this is still beside the point. Do you want the government to control what you can and can't do to your own body? Eat this, don't drink that, don't smoke that, don't swallow...

IMO, any sensible drug policy has two strands:

1) Education... ensure that the consumer is well informed about the physical consequences of consumption

2) Prosecution... for specific criminal activity whilst under the influence. Attacking someone sober is a crime. Attacking someone drunk is a crime. Drinking is not. Likewise, attacking someone whilst high (the day I see a stoner attack anyone, hell freezes over...) is attacking someone.

Consumption of any substance is ultimately a personal choice and should be beyond the scope of the law. Actions deriving from that consumption that affect other people should be dealt with as they would be if said substance were removed from the equation.

to quote bill hicks

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how can you make nature illegal isnt that like saying GOD was wrong?!

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by incandenza

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don't swallow...

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heheheheee

I'm not so sure on the idea of the full legalisation of all drugs, I feel it would be harmful for many people (although it goes against my principles, because I do believe people should be free to do what they want to their bodies)

I think Cannabis should be legalised as its demonstrably less harmful than say tobacco or alcohol.

I do think though that education is the key - currently I think that's where the most work needs to be done. The amount of people I know/have met who take drugs, yet really know nothing about them is amazing.

Drugs education needs to be non-biased also. In the past drug education has been a poorly concealed "Just say no" campaign. What people need is fair, unbiased information on drugs.

Ok, here's a silly idea, imagine you needed a 'license' to take drugs. To get your license, you have to learn about drugs, and pass an exam. Once passed, it is assumed that you can make your own informed choice on whether to take that drug or not.

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by Funky Monkey
Ok, here's a silly idea, imagine you needed a 'license' to take drugs. To get your license, you have to learn about drugs, and pass an exam. Once passed, it is assumed that you can make your own informed choice on whether to take that drug or not.

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The problem with this is that the need for a license would reincentivise illegal suppliers to unlicensed consumers.

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by Incandenza
...Likewise, attacking someone whilst high (the day I see a stoner attack anyone, hell freezes over...) is attacking someone...

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I think Hell just froze.
I knew a lad a school who actually grew his own. He came in to school one day stoned, and attacked several people before being hauled away. I also know that he has spent several years in prison due to his addiction (mostly assults and burglary).


(Edited by Vinnie 25/06/2003 15:28)

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by Vinnie
(quotes)
he has spent several years in prison due to his addition

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*This court does not recognise the use of calculators*

I think the topic heading says something quite relevant - hasn't heavy use of cannabis, especially starting from the teenage years, been shown to induce severe depressions, psychoses, and in some, schizophrenia? All chemicals taken into the body affect the fine balance that is present, and to stop people harming themselves heavy use of fats, sugars and processed foods would also need to be restricted - a ban on McDonalds?? Can't see that happening - same as for tobacco and alcohol - but if a large US corporation managed to start trading in cannabis (actually - who's to say there isn't already??!!)I'm sure they would push for legalisation, and more!
It does make me cross that more isn't done to reduce alcohol and tobacco consumption, especially as consumption of both hastened my dad's death, but it's easy money for the treasury!

i reckon it's only illegal cos the government cant put a tax on it

i have seen many investigative documentaries on the effets of long term use of cannibis and i have to say from experience it's true (the depression and the psychoses well the depression for me at least) but then depression is present in A LOT of people (and depression was already present in me but it helped sometimes to cheer me up) and on some occasions it helps. i say it should be legallised for medical use only really as i know people who are in severe pain (one person (related to my brother in law) has every problem going and is on the highest dose of morphin possible and it doesnt help her she cant even sleep for more then an hour at a time but one joint and she was out like a light for hours) i at one point was using it myself when i was suffering terrible insomnia but realised i couldnt allow myself to depend on it so i dont touch it anymore someone related to me smokes everyday without fail and has done for years but he was always a little psycho so i cant say whether or not its affected him but yeah maybe occasionally for recreational use it's alright but if anything they should make it okay for people who are really ill and it helps if they are sure it'll benefit.

did that make sense?

(Edited by bipolar 25/06/2003 15:52)

The only problem with making it legal would be that a tax would then put on it which would drive the price up.
Its never made me depressed I just oink like a pig or get the giggles

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by pimpdaddy
The only problem with making it legal would be that a tax would then put on it which would drive the price up.

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Or people would just grow their own.

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by Green_Amber
hasn't heavy use of cannabis, especially starting from the teenage years, been shown to induce severe depressions, psychoses, and in some, schizophrenia?

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To be honest, I don't think there is conclusive evidence either way at the moment.

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It does make me cross that more isn't done to reduce alcohol and tobacco consumption

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Can't agree with this. This is one area where the ill effects of consumption are heavily publicised (no-one can honestly smoke and then one day say 'Oh, I didn't realise it was bad for me'). The government should not be intervening to prevent people from doing anything potentially harmful (skydiving? snowboarding? crossing the road?).

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by bipolar
i reckon it's only illegal cos the government cant put a tax on it

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Surely the only reason they can't put a tax on it is because it is illegal? If retailers had joints next to Marlboros, there would be a tax for sure.

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by pimpdaddy
The only problem with making it legal would be that a tax would then put on it which would drive the price up.

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I can't see any reason why that should necessarily be true. With legalisation would come competition between suppliers which would eat into existing margins, potentially more than compensating for any taxes being charged.

[quote]by Incandenza

(quotes)

If retailers had joints next to Marlboros,
(quotes)

That would be so cool

Inc, wink face was to indicate that i was joking. dont have to pick at everything.

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by bipolar
Inc, wink face was to indicate that i was joking. dont have to pick at everything.

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Sorry, I don't speak fluent smiley.

If you think thats bad you should read an article in last months FHM about the cannabis laws in the states,(obviously not as high brow journalism as the observer but more people I know read FHM than the observor) personally I think the government needs to chill out a bit, put there feet up, wrap up a doobie and blaze it up !!! And i can vouch for david blunketts dog smoking because i was the dealer that sold it too her for a fiver for a henry !!!(LOL JOKE)

I, like most, am all for personal choice but I thought I'd just share my experiences with you. At my high school there were (and heck, probably still are) a lot of teenagers who smoke cannabis. One of them was called Gary Clarke. He was addicted (I know that its widely believed to not be medically addictive but you don't know what Gary was like) and got himself into a lot of debt. He tried to hang himself, ended up in a coma, and eventually died.

My friend Dave has ruined his life because he was constantly stoned and didn't give a flying **** about school, got into constant trouble with the police etc. (and I know he only got into trouble with the police because its illegal etc but I'm making the point that there is a reason for many being against the idea of it being widely available).

Oh and finally Nathan. He's 17. He had a heart attack this time last year, all drug related. Now he has to live as a virtual recluse or risk his health even more.

I agree with personal choice, but my personal experience is rather negative because as humans, we go to excesses when it comes to seeking pleasure. Our ids control.

(Edited by Emma 28/06/2003 21:31)

To me, this really is quite simple. There is no argument for banning the current list of proscibed substances that could not be used to ban alcohol and tobacco. I know more people who have ruined their lived on those two substances than any of the others. I also know more people who have had their lives made a misery by alcoholics than by 'drug abusers'.

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but I don't want to live in a country where alcohol and tobacco are banned. If I quit either it should be my choice and no one else's.

Every argument used about addiction applies to many other substances. And past-times, like gambling and exercise. Fact is people do stupid things whether it's illegal or not. In fact, it is easier to give, or even request, help if the substance or activity is legal. We need to start treating addicts as people who need help, not criminals.

Declassification helps a little, in that it stops the criminalisation of people who hurt no one. As Inc said, assault is a crime, whatever state you are in. But it doesn't go far enough. The profit for these substances is still mainly going to organized crime rings. The price itself is artificially high because it is a sellers market (as there is no legal supply). Anyone trying to undercut a seller will usually find a number of limbs missing or damaged very soon.

Legalize the lot. Don't tax it because I'm opposed to all forms of indirect tax. Anyone addicted should be dealt like any other person with a physical/mental health problem. Criminalising these substances only makes criminals of innocent people.

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by Emma
I know that its widely believed to not be medically addictive

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Just wanted to make a note that there are believed to be two forms of addiction; physical and mental. It is widely believed that cannabis is not physically addictive (basically, there is no evidence that it is). But anything can be mentally addictive. I've seen people commit crimes to feed their gaming addiction, for crise sakes. In fact, there is even a growing body of evidence that in fact all addictions are mental and not physical.

A story from today's Guardian Online about links between cannabis use and psychosis can be found

here.

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by Jayjay
The price itself is artificially high because it is a sellers market (as there is no legal supply).

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I think you'd find quite the opposite to be true. If legalised, the price would be artificially high, and mainly tax.

I can't comment on drugs like Cocaine etc, but when it comes to cannabis, I couldn't think of better value for money really. It may be slighty higher now(?), but for at least ten years a 1/16th cost £7.50 - that represents superb value, when you consider inflation.

When it comes to beer, £7.50 wont get you and your friends drunk, and beer has also come down in price drastically over the last couple of years.

Now, then consider the risks a chain of people have taken to get the drug from source to destination, and that the distribution chain is long (each taking their cut), and you see that it really does represent fantastic value for money!

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Anyone trying to undercut a seller will usually find a number of limbs missing or damaged very soon.

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Most dealers probably want to raise the price if anything, but that is difficult. Once one dealer raises his price, he'll lose business because people go elsewhere to get it cheaper.. I think thats why the price of cannabis hasnt risen with inflation.

(Edited by Funky Monkey 04/07/2003 13:43)