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by Stoo
Anyone here still believe the earth is still flat?

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In a couple of hundred more years, we might even start using world maps that give a sensible depiction of the world (i.e. all countries in correct proportion).

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by Teresa
Never mind, never gonna read the book.

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Bits of it are quite fun and there's a couple of cracking yarns (that crazy Noah dude and his whale for example) but ultimately it all falls down because suspension of disbelief is pushed too far by this omnipotent God character.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)

In a couple of hundred more years, we might even start using world maps that give a sensible depiction of the world (i.e. all countries in correct proportion).

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Probably not Countrys will probably still exaggirate their own importance.

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by Incandenza
that crazy Noah dude

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It's not as good without the visuals. The people with long beards and the animals with the big flappy ears...

What the Bible needs is a bit of 'pop culture' in the telling to reach today's generation. You can just see it now. A 4 hour James Cameron Biblical epic, including the expulsion of Adam and Eve from paradise. As the skies overhead turns black and lightning crashes down, a booming voice thunders across the land:

"Adam and Eve, you have been evicted! Please leave the Garden of Eden!"

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by Jayjay
However, correct me if I am wrong, but the only record we have on what the Christian God and Jesus believe was the way people should lead their lives, is the documents contained in the bible? To then try and say "well, that was then - what God wants now is..." seems just a tad presumptuous to me. Unless you're claiming to be Christ reborn, that is. Then it would be reasonable...

What I am trying to say without too much sarcasm is, believe in whatever fairy tales you want, but why say you're a Christian when you do not agree with the teachings of the bible? If you don’t agree with the Bible, call yourself a Pantheist, or Self-Revelatory Monotheist. But you can’t, with honesty, call yourself a Christian.

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Some bits of the Bible are okay. Not very much of it, but that's okay, because people have been selective with what they obey for most of the religion's life.

Hell, what comes under the umbrella term Christianity differs an awful lot between factions in terms of emphasis and practice. Some Christians don't even like admitting that Catholicism is part of their religion.

So of course no-one properly obeys the Bible, and I'd be very alarmed if they did (for a start sideburns don't work on everybody...). Maybe they shouldn't call themselves Christian, but they justify it as being in the spirit of Christ's teachings and it makes very little difference to me. Many Christians in the UK haven't read the Bible, are Christian because their parents were and they only go to church at Christmas and Easter. They haven't thought about it, which is all the more reason why I'd like to see the Church have a stance that didn't say homosexuality was a sin and allowed gay clergy so they can save themselves the bother of being contemplative about it.

OMG! My whole viewpoint has now changed. I have found Jesus!!

And what's more, you can find him too if you look hard enough!

Where's Christ

got to remember too that the bible has been rewritten countless times, bits added, taken out, reworded. they find new bits, its pretty hard to say its the definitive word of god really isn't it?!

The definitive word of God is: Bo Selecta!!



God is Craig David!!!

Scary....

I cannot think of a single Christian Church that does not hold the Bible as the word of god.

When Martin Luther nailed his list to the church door, he wasn't complaining the Roman Catholic Church wasn't modern enough. In fact, it was a list of all the ways the Roman Catholic Church had contravened God's laws, as described in the Bible. From this the Protestant movement arose, all holding that the Bible was the word of God.

As for the Roman Catholics themselves (and their offshoots, like the Anglican Church), as far as I am aware they also hold the Bible as the word of God, with the addition that the Pope is infallible, and is so able to add to this list of God's laws.

And it has not been rewritten, but has been translated a number of times. However, we still have the 'original' (well, obviously not the actual covenant, that's in an arc somewhere, and hidden in the US government's vaults, according to Indy...) documents that the Bible is formed from. We can re-examine them with our knowledge of Hebrew and Greek. Chinese whispers are no defence.

And yes, people do tend to accentuate the bits they like in the bible over the bits they don't. Two reasons. It contradicts itself all the time, sometimes in the space of a couple of paragraphs. Because we do not take the church as our moral source, whatever the Church may claim.

And this is the fundamental failure of Christianity. The source book, the word of God, is flawed and makes no sense when looked at in total. Further, no one bases their morality on the Bible, and therefore ignore 'the word of God' in what they think is right and wrong. They base it on what their parent(s) thought, their peers, the society they grow up in. Not the Bible. The evangelists come closest to keeping to the strict line of the Bible, yet I haven't heard any recent calls for all rape victims who were raped in an urban environment to be stoned to death.

And then there are all the Christians who are comfortable with evolution, despite it being in direct contradiction with the bible.

Basically, it is impossible to live by all the rules of the Bible. However, this can only be a cause for vagary for Christians where there is a contradiction. There is none in the Bible regarding homosexuality. On this there is only one message - it disgusts God and is a sin.

Gay priests?

I thought all priests, well at least the RC ones, were all gay anyway. not like it's a new issue

(and please note the above is a joke, meant to be funny, or at least amusing and no offence is meant to be taken by anyone of any faith or sexual persuasion)

I don't think that pointing out continuity errors in the Bible proves that it's stupid. I think that most would agree (including many Christians) that many of the stories in the Old Testament are just stories. Perhaps written to help people understand the world before science helped. So any Christian that believes in evolution isn't going against the Bible, they're just looking from an angle with more ideas about the world. I've never read the Bible, so really I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm struggling to remember what else is in the Old Testament. But I know there are some pretty damn cool stories that shouldn't be dismissed just because they're attached to a religion (most religions have some interesting myths and legends). Also, some pretty good teachings (10 commandments?). There's some awful teachings in there too and that's part of the reason I'm not Christian.
Then there's the new stuff about Jesus. I don't think it would hurt anybody, regardless of religion (especially a lot of Christians) to follow some of the advice of Jesus.
I'm not saying the Bible is great and I'm certainly not saying it should be the basis of a religion. It has caused a lot of crap over the years (wars, murders etc), but I don't think you should dismiss it entirely just because of this. It's still got some good teachings (along with the bad) and it's a look at a very different world and culture to our's. I hate religion and I don't think that anybody really needs it anymore, but that doesn't mean that I think the Bible is a load of rubbish just because of a few flaws and contradictions. Of course, nothing I've said has anything to back it up because I haven't read all of the damn thing.

Continuity errors? That's a new one on me. Not sure the people who got stones to death for them would necessarily agree.

But I have a real issue with 'We only believe in the New Testament' Christians. Especially as they usually haven't read anything from either Testament. This idea of Old=Wrathful Jewish God and New=Loving Christian God doean't stand up. Jesus taught racism. He introduced the concept of a torturing hell for sinners that would last an eternity. He was not, despite some depictions, a well meaning hippy that just wanted everyone to chill out. Do not be fooled by the long hair, beard and sandals.

This is not to say there is nothing agreeable in the bible. Even as one of the most loathsome of world religions, it still has bits about loving neighbours and not killing people (unless god tells you to). But you know what? I don't need a religion to know that. And really, the bible and christianity doesn't go any deeper than that. Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism and Wicka have for more interesting insights to offer. But then secular philosphers offer the same things and usually in more depth and without the superstitious mumbo jumbo.

I dismiss Christianity because it is a half-thought out self-contradictory home for bigots. I don't need any religion to know the rewards of kindness to others, for the value of having laws that protect us from violence. These are self-evident, as long as you are open hearted and open minded. Religion just breeds dogma, slavish behaviour and war.

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by Jayjay
This idea of Old=Wrathful Jewish God and New=Loving Christian God doean't stand up. Jesus taught racism. He introduced the concept of a torturing hell for sinners that would last an eternity. He was not, despite some depictions, a well meaning hippy that just wanted everyone to chill out. Do not be fooled by the long hair, beard and sandals.

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Well i only studied the book of Mark, but i spent all my GCSE years doing it. i didnt see any racism or much talk of hell.

even the little talk of hell there was seemed to be in the "repent and you shall be forgiven" vein.

I'm sorry JJ, but you are mixed up there. I dont usually comment on religion, but i think you are wrong here.

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by Jay Jay
I don't need any religion to know the rewards of kindness to others, for the value of having laws that protect us from violence. These are self-evident, as long as you are open hearted and open minded. Religion just breeds dogma, slavish behaviour and war.

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Well look at the UK. religion is declining, crime is on the increase. without religion to turn to, a lot of people are falling by the way side. christianity serves a purpous, as does all religion, of keeping people good (mainly anyway).

(PS, sorry for spelling mistakes. even worse than usual, i know. shut my fingers in the car door today! actually compeltly shut the door on them! hence typing with different fingers tonight.)

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by Jayjay
Continuity errors? That's a new one on me. Not sure the people who got stones to death for them would necessarily agree.

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It just gets on my nerves when people say that the Bible is clearly all wrong because there's no dinosaurs, or because it contradicts itself occasionally. I don't believe in much in the Bible, I see it as fiction, but I don't see how these things can prove it's wrong. Actually, I'm being to in the back of my mind, but oh well. Certain things it teaches I object to, but anything that has happened to people prompted by the Bible (good or bad) was the fault of those who believe in it, not the Bible itself. I have to defend it because it is just a book, it's the religion based on it that I have a problem with.

Well me and Mandy marched with loads of gay priests on saturday and they all got fantastic reactions from the crowds and the ones we spoke to were lovely.

also, dude! subadriver!

A few contradictions? Too many for me to list here. Go read this if you want a long list:

www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html
www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/bible.html

Scroll halfway down the second one and there is a lovely list of contradictions just from the New Testament, in a cute table format.

Right, who's next? Hell. Old testament makes no reference to Hell. Jesus did. The old testament also contains revelations than refer to jusgement day and spending eternity in a lake of fire. All vengeful stuff. Jesus was not, I repeat WAS NOT A HIPPY.

Racism. Haven't got my copy of the Good News bible to hand (got it for regular church attendance back in my Hitler Youth days) so I'll get back to you with examples another time. Off the top of my head there is certainly at least one situation where Jesus refuses to go to a man's house and heal his kid because they are not Jews. If that ain't racism what is it?

As for "but anything that has happened to people prompted by the Bible (good or bad) was the fault of those who believe in it, not the Bible itself" - and guns don't kill people people do. The Bible says its ok to kill people if god tells you to. In fact, if god tells you to and you don't he'll punish you and seven generations of your children. He might even kill you as well. The Bible is the word of god, the holy text of the Christians and the basis for the religion. And it is full of hate.

Rising crime. Seen the US crime figures recently? And they're practically a theocracy these days, what with god owning their money, their land (according to the pledge of allegiance) and a bible-bashing born again self-righteous dictato .. sorry, I mean duly elected President. I know loads of atheists and not one of them has done time. Check out your average prison and you'll see a lot of crosses and a lot of praying. Especially in the showers. Here's some news 'Theists commit crimes and atheism does not mean immorality'.

So sayeth me. Let it be on earth as it is in my tiny twisted mind.

(bit of a funny mood tonight, so you must excuse me. I know god does, she told me so)

(Edited by Jayjay 01/08/2003 03:56)

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by Jayjay
Off the top of my head there is certainly at least one situation where Jesus refuses to go to a man's house and heal his kid because they are not Jews. If that ain't racism what is it?

(Edited by Jayjay 01/08/2003 03:56)

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The story I heard was that he healed the man's kid despite him not being a Jew. I dunno, could be wrong, or maybe it's yet another contradiction.

Though it's certainly interesting to debate the accuracy of modern translations of the bible, and the veracity of various elements of Christian philosophy, it should be remembered that the theological side of things matters far less in many ways, certainly in everyday life, than the pastoral side -- God is far less important than the Church.

It matters less that Leviticus says all manner of "interesting" things, than that JP2 says

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"There are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to GodÂ’s plan for marriage and family. Marriage is holy, while homosexual acts go against the natural moral law."

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and that those extending cohabitation rights to gay couples need to be

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"reminded that the approval or legalisation of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil"

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that

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"Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour ... but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity."

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and that

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"In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognised or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal co-operation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application.

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these aren't comments written, rewritten, edited and translated over the last two and a half thousand years, these are comments the single most important religious figure in the world made this week. The Catholic church's position on homosexuality leaves no room for debate, and as is clear in the US today the Anglican church may find itself literally split in two on the matter.

Given how religious Tony Blair and George Bush are it will be interesting to see how they, and other politicians, react to the appeals for Catholic legislators to actively oppose any legislation recognising gay rights (yes, I know Tone is technically Anglican, but he does regularly attend Catholic communion, Mrs Blair is a devout Catholic, and the atheist eminence gris, Alastair Campbell, hardly holds as much influence as he used to).

I agree with Callum, the problem isnt the bible it's the church, organised religion, where someone interperits the text for you.

The bible says "love the sinner, hate the sin". problem is with christianity (and other religions) the devout feel so righteous, so above everyone else, so sure of their place in heaven, that they forget the teachings of the bible, other than to condem others for braking it's laws.

religion isnt evil or bad. But, the church can be!

(i say can be because a few preachers dont impose their or the churches view. they are a minority though, sadly)

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by Yally
The story I heard was that he healed the man's kid despite him not being a Jew. I dunno, could be wrong, or maybe it's yet another contradiction.

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Yup, the kid was healed. But not without JC making it quite clear that this man was below him and not worthy of his company, not being a Jew. Racism with a heart, if you like.