---

by Robert Kilroy-Silk
Can you think of anything? Anything really useful? Anything really valuable? Something we really need, could not do without?"

---

He could try mathematics for a start...
Silks, trade, an "other" for Empire to conquer.

</me goes off to quote "Life of Brian"... Well, apart from the roads, and the baths, and the circus....>

(Edited by Bee 08/01/2004 17:25)

Just some background info
Arabs, name originally applied to the Semitic peoples of the Arabian peninsula; now used also for populations of countries whose primary language is Arabic.

If I just look in the list I don't think that we owe any of these countries (except possibly Iraq - as in help rebuild the country we so happy blew to pieces) anything.

And I'm pretty sure that the video's where we saw people celibrating the attack on the twin towers didn't give them a lot of browny points with most people in the western world.

Sure not everyone in those countries where happy about what happend but I didn't any images from other places on this globe where we had people dancing down the street because of this.... (except possibly some small Islamic states here and there)

And yes this is a volatile area we can hardly deny that.... Loads of killing / murdering / small wars going on there mainly about oil... And yes this is the place where most of the suicide bombers originate from....

And where laws include the amputation of limbs for various crimes (from stealing to being drunk publically etc). Although the Koran / Islam on it pretty much fair to women the culture built up over the years is in our views less than fair to the women that live there.

And be honest can you think of anything that they export that is actually valuable to us which isn't extracted from the grounds by western companies (or that where western from origin)

Besides some nice sporting events (next years Formula 1 race?) I'm not aware that they do very much there really...... Sure some of the countries like Egypt make nice places for tourism but as far as I'm aware tourism isn't export

After oil the main exports are hides, wool, coffee, spices, camels, and the famed, highly bred Arabian horses; in W Arabia pearls were exported.

Well coffee we currently get from somewhere else (colombia) same for wool (Australia) and hides and spices and the same counts for pearls(Specially bread). So that kinda leaves (besides oil) camels and Arabian horses.... Not directly very valuable commidities for most in the western world I would say.

Also most of the welfare actually comes from Western countries. And in our views the way the threat women and go around punishing people can't be seen as the most civilised way of doing things. So don't think that these countries would looking at their backgrounds would do very well in a debate on what is acceptable conduct.

Sure in the past these countries where the "Beginning" of our civilization they invented loads of things that we still benefit from but thats ages ago.... What do they have to show for now

Ooh and on the subject of aim for war and all..... Well the USA was slowly working their way from Weapons of mass distruction too Overthrowing this dictator for the stability and good for world

If you read all those things it's just how you interupt them all as I don't really see what I just wrote as racisme or rachatred or whatever... And I didn't say much different than what Kilroy said....

Did you read the same words I did? The part where Kilroy held an entire race guilty for the actions of 13 of its constituents? Which is akin to tarnishing Causasians because of Timothy McVae.

We're morally superior in the West. We don't say "Gotcha!" when a ship filled with conscripts who have never done a thing to us is blown out the water.

I would see the response of a handful of Palestinans (which, as it happens, was archieved footage used in a crude bit of agenda setting) who finally see a blow struck against the power that funds the power that's spent half a century opressing them as being rather more justified. Not pleasent, but understandable. Dehumanizing our enemies is a common human trait.

Mostly I'm left confused by the above post: what's your argument?

Well, at least it's good to know Kilroy won't be gracing (well, violating) our TV screens for much longer. I can't see the BBC keeping him on after writing that tirade. If they do, they'll get a lot of complaints, that's for sure.

As far as what has been said, i think it's disgusting to write off a huge section of the species (yes, we are all Human), simply because of the actions of what is essentially a very small minority. It stinks of the kind of bigotry that we should be trying to leave in the past, and I despair at seeing it so blatantly displayed now.

Nobody is going to deny that Arabic and Islamic culture is very different to Western culture. They do a lot of things differently and that's a good thing, not a bad thing. Instead of writing them off and trying to force them to change by denouncing their culture as wrong, we should be trying to accept that other cultures are different and working together to create new, joint ways of doing things.

Most of the anti-western sentiment in the Arabic/Islamnic world has been caused by the West's bigotry, cultural and economic domination throughout the recent historical period, so no-one should be surprised when they get angry and take what they deem to be necessary steps.

---

by Byron
The part where Kilroy held an entire race guilty for the actions of 13 of its constituents?

---

This is called Redlining which is something banks do and have done for ages. He doesn't blame the individual people at all..... where is the sense in that! What he does address is the fact that the Arabic nations are an ideal breading ground for these activities.

---

Not pleasent, but understandable. Dehumanizing our enemies is a common human trait.

---

Ofcourse it's totally understandable and I wouldn't have expected them to react in any other way. But it didn't help the feelings of a lot of people at that time (or now) as they never thought these things through from all viewpoints.

---

Mostly I'm left confused by the above post: what's your argument?

---

That how you read this article and your reaction to it is mainly based on your predisposition to the matter. As personally I didn't feel compelled to start hating the Arabs at all. Loads of things in what he wrote is all true (maybe what provocitivly phrased) but true none the less as I proved by taking a few of his points and writing them down differently.

---

by Chambler
This is called Redlining which is something banks do and have done for ages. He doesn't blame the individual people at all..... where is the sense in that! What he does address is the fact that the Arabic nations are an ideal breading ground for these activities.

---

Erm, because individual people are responsible for their own actions?

If his argument is that aspects of Middle Eastern and Islamic culture aggravate said fanaticism, it's appallingly made, and so deeply buried behind a veil of rampant prejudice it cannot hope to lead to any useful debate.

---

Ofcourse it's totally understandable and I wouldn't have expected them to react in any other way. But it didn't help the feelings of a lot of people at that time (or now) as they never thought these things through from all viewpoints.

---

Perhaps it would help them try if a well-paid commentator writing in a mass circulation newspaper made constructive comments instead of indulging in saloon-bar bigotry.

---

That how you read this article and your reaction to it is mainly based on your predisposition to the matter. As personally I didn't feel compelled to start hating the Arabs at all. Loads of things in what he wrote is all true (maybe what provocitivly phrased) but true none the less as I proved by taking a few of his points and writing them down differently.

---

But Kilroy did not phrase it differently.

---

by Byron
(quotes)
Erm, because individual people are responsible for their own actions?

---

So surely if people are responsible for their own actions then and any racial hatred arising from the incitement is the responsibility of the individual and not alledgedly Kilroy.

Agree with him or not I personally believe he should have the right to voice his opinion.

(Edited by JtB 08/01/2004 23:10)

---

by JtB
(quotes)

So surely if people are responsible for their own actions then and any racial hatred arising from the incitement is the responsibility of the individual and not alledgedly Kilroy.

Agree with him or not I personally believe he should have the right to voice his opinion.

---

Absolutely. I think the various bodies calling for his resignation have shot themselves in the foot by trying to deploy the blunt arm of the law against the runny brain of Kilroy. He does not deserve to be turned into a martyr over this tawdry little rant.

He should however wave goodbye to his job, as he can no longer be seen as impartial, which is a central job requirement. Rod Liddle was sacked from editing Radio 4's Today programme for much less.

Maths! They invented maths! Is no-one listening?!

On a serious note, we should not remember that the East (including what are now the Arab states) were a highly civilised part of the globe waaaaay before the West was walking upright. The Cradle of Civilisation. The first code of laws (Hammurabi, in case you're wondering) Hanging gardens of Babylon. Hell, Babylon. They had an Empire (the Ottoman Turks) well before England got itself stamping red across the globe - the Ottomans made it as far as the gates of Vienna, don't forget.
Most of the problems in the East today are caused by the West's 18th and 19th century Empire-building projects, and the fact that afterwards they divided everywhere up into "civilised" Western-style countries (e.g. Iraq, which never was a 'nation' in our sense of the world), then ran away when things didn't quite work out. Oh, we owe the East a lot...

Ah, but all said and done they're "suicide bombers, limb-amputators, women repressors" (airal bombers, refugee limb-amputators, colonial repressors).

They "danced in the hot, dusty streets to celebrate the murders" (downed lager in hot, crowded bars to celebrate the murders).

They commit "cold-blooded killings in Mombasa, Yemen and elsewhere" (cold-blooded killings in Vietnam, Suez, Panama, Chile, Iraq and many, many elsewheres).

By Christ I hate our putrid self-destructive race at times!

---

by Bee
Maths! They invented maths! Is no-one listening?!

---

---

Chambler
Sure in the past these countries where the "Beginning" of our civilization they invented loads of things that we still benefit from but thats ages ago....

---

Wouldn't say no-one

---

Byron
as he can no longer be seen as impartial, which is a central job requirement

---

Aslong as he doesn't do a show about this matter I do not see what the problem is. Dealing with a situation impartially does not mean not having your own opinion about that matter or other matters. Whereas if you are an editor of a Radio program based on todays news headlines this might be a bit different than being a talkshow host.

I get the strange feeling *cough* that you in general never particulairy liked this guy to start with and you would have been more than happy to see him go even before this so called incident.

That we as the western world have been doing things now and in the past that we shouldn't be all too proud of doesn't mean in my eyes that we should just say to some parts of the world just sort out yourselves and we'll talk to you in 25 - 50 years see how far you got. Personally I don't see how that would, in the current climat, do much good for minority groups, women and children etc etc if we would just let them go on they way that some groups in those countries are trying to go.

Do you deny that most of the points made in his column (as in no real export expect oil, that they have laws that allow them to cut of limbs for offenses in which you would get a small fine in the western world, surpress women, that due to the oil loads of battles / wars are being faught and people are killed at the drop of a hat) are not true?

That the western world might have done these things and others (maybe even worse) in the past doesn't make them morally right for other people to do them too.

(note: whoops! I edited your post instead of posting my own! Original content replaced, honest! )

(Edited by Byron 09/01/2004 13:01)

To quote Asimov:
"It is better that the strong learn morality through adversity than that the weak lose morality through prosperity"

A brief and embarrassed preface concerning the previous post: scotch and a struck nerve make for an evil, maudlin mix.

---

Chambler
As long as he doesn't do a show about this matter I do not see what the problem is. Dealing with a situation impartially does not mean not having your own opinion about that matter or other matters. Whereas if you are an editor of a Radio program based on todays news headlines this might be a bit different than being a talkshow host.

I get the strange feeling *cough* that you in general never particulairy liked this guy to start with and you would have been more than happy to see him go even before this so called incident.

That we as the western world have been doing things now and in the past that we shouldn't be all too proud of doesn't mean in my eyes that we should just say to some parts of the world just sort out yourselves and we'll talk to you in 25 - 50 years see how far you got. Personally I don't see how that would, in the current climat, do much good for minority groups, women and children etc etc if we would just let them go on they way that some groups in those countries are trying to go.

Do you deny that most of the points made in his column (as in no real export expect oil, that they have laws that allow them to cut of limbs for offenses in which you would get a small fine in the western world, surpress women, that due to the oil loads of battles / wars are being faught and people are killed at the drop of a hat) are not true?

That the western world might have done these things and others (maybe even worse) in the past doesn't make them morally right for other people to do them too.

---

Impartiality requires not an absence of opinion, but an ability to set those opinions aside. By feeling the need to broadcast such strident, blinkered, and I would say racist, views in a newspaper, Kilroy has destroyed any faith people may have in him to conduct himself impartially in his job. By delineating any subject as one he cannot handle objectively, he has fatally compromised himself; you cannot have an impartial presenter for whom you must earmark certain matters to avoid - by definition they are no longer impartial. Patrick Moore holds, shall we say without straying down libel lane, certain forthright views, but that doesn't matter a hoot because he presents astronomy programmes. Kilroy's job description is different.

I've never cared for the man, I consider him rude and overbearing, and his mediating crass, but that's irrelevant to his employment if the BBC accept him on those terms. This isn't.

There are no facts in Kilroy's grubby diatribe because he attacks Arabs collectively, not those responsible for the wrongs he details. It's the tone and its crude generalisations that damn, and it's this you seem to be spectacularly overlooking!

---

by Chambler
Sure in the past these countries where the "Beginning" of our civilization they invented loads of things that we still benefit from but thats ages ago....

---

Oh, apologies, I didn't realise there was a statute of limitations on respecting and appreciating the origins of our civilisation...

Kilroy aside, we should be realising that, politically speaking, the West has a serious amount to make up to the Arab states for leaving them the mess that is affecting *everyone* these days...

EDIT: Breaking News - "Kilroy" off the air whilst he is being investigated...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3383589.stm

(Edited by Bee 09/01/2004 15:04)

(Edited by Bee 09/01/2004 15:20)

Bloody good thing too.

I couldn't agree more about the West's responsibility to the Arabs, which goes at least as far back as Lawrence of Arabia and the betrayal of his promises at the Paris Peace Accords of 1919, and quite a bit further if you include all the imperialist spats the Victorians got upto.

All this makes Kilroy's rants about the Arab's deficiences grimly ironic, but I somehow doubt his family braincell could grasp that concept.

The fact this man was considered competent as an MP is deeply disturbing, and has to be one of the best arguments Anarchy has ever had!

Not to mention the Crusades, which wrecked what had been a relatively tolerant region. If any one's studied the Crusades or seen Terry Jones' tv series on the subject, the contrast between Saladin's behaviour and that of the Europeans is extremely telling. I think it's quite likely that part of the world learnt how to play really dirty from Europeans.

Europe still hadn't learnt how to behave in a civilised fashion a few centuries later when America was invaded and subjugated, and it still looks like things haven't changed (which countries have the most weapons of mass destruction and believe they have the right to dictate to other countries, either economically, environmentally or militarily?).

Roll on the super-bug pandemic to put our species back in its place as part of the world, not the owners of it!

---

Such comments had to be challenged or law-abiding Muslims would be made to feel that the extremists were right and that most non-Muslims actually hated them, Mr Phillips added.

---

yes, we believe everything the media tells us, ever heard of uses and grats?

---

by Havoc
uses and grats?

---

I don't think I'm quite familiar with that
phrase...

to do with stuff like the violence debate, quick explanation:

Hypodermic needle model: we believe and conform to everything we're shown - we watch violent films, we become violent:

Uses and gratifications: we select what we watch and take in - violent people watch violent films

somewhat simplified (understatement of the year).

basically what i was saying is that the Muslims aren't going to think that all white people hate them just because of Kilroy's comments unless they are already predisposed to that nature.