To me, patriotism is about pride in your country not necessarily about feeling superior to other nations, but I can see why someone would make that connection.

And I am very proud to be English.

I'm English first, British second and European somewhere at the very, very back. My humanity encompasses all of these, it doesn't rank in a particular order with them.

Ah, the patriotism thread... yay.
I think we must be careful to distinguish patriotism from nationalism, of which the latter I think is the notion that one's nation is intrinsically superior to others. Richard Price's tract "On the Love of Our Country" (1789), and I like his formulation of Patriotism best...

"The love of our country has in all times been a subject of warm commendations and it is certainly a noble pasison, but, like all other passions, it requires regulation and direction. There are mistakes and prejudices by which, in this instance, we are in particular danger of being misled... It is proper to observe that... the love {of our country} which is our duty does not imply any conviction of the superior value of it to other coutnries, or any particular preference of its laws and constitution of government. Were this implied, the love of their country would be the duty of only a very small part of mankind, for there are few countries that enjoy the advantage of laws and governments which deserve to be preferred. To found, therefore, this duty on such a preference would be to found it on error and delusion..."

Still relevant today, I feel.
As for me, I tend to disconcert people when I say I am Welsh rather than British; however, I've always felt that, and don't hold it against anyone who feels British. Or who feels English, for that matter - it is quite sad that English patriotic iconography has been allied so often to boors, ignorants and violent bigots, rather than being celebrated as its own unique and individual culture, in the same way as everyone else. Sometimes there is too much history...
However, as Jayjay says, the Rugby is a different matter!

"I love this country. This sceptred ****ing isle, this wonderful, foolish England." Guy Burgess (reportedly)

My dictionary defines a "patriot" as "one who loves, supports, and defends one's country". That's it. Nowhere does the word "unconditional" feature in that definition; neither does the word "superior".

I really do love this country. The landscape, reckoned by some to be the most varied in the world; the sense of humour so warped it would leave Newton at a loss; the perfection of griping into an artform; a general ability to be tolerant; mixing tea with milk; the beer (mostly); the idiotic but strangely majestic traditions. Heck, even the weather at least keeps you guessing.

There's a lot I don't like (Hanovian inbreeds with more kingdoms than braincells and a troublesome habit of "restating" money from the Civil List for one) but all weighed in I think it's a pretty decent place to live.

So I tend to get very upset when something hurts it, when nasty, divisive policies are imposed upon it and when corrupt men and women in positions of power abuse it for their own gain, or involve it in needless wars.

Will Self said, "I regard myself as a citizen of an archipelago that happens to be called Britain." Maybe so, perhaps it is nothing but the bastard child of circumstance, but I happen to rather like the offspring, however uncertain its pedigree.

Now as for jingoism ...

Milk in Tea! Barbarian! That one is probaly fourth on the list of The Worst British Crimes, after Slavery, Israel and The Concentration Camp...

Is there really a gap between Patriot and Nationalist? Isn't it just that we only tend to use the latter when we're talking about people trying to create an independent nation, rather than loving an existing one? I don't have my Oxford to hand, but Webster's says 'One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests'. Zealously. Authority. These are not words I'm overly comfortable with.

On a general note, it seems to me the patriot loves their country whatever. It is not the achievements or values of that country they admire, but the country itself, which in truth is not a real entity, but a method of government and division that is barely half a millenia old. I can understanding be proud of a culture, of a set of moral values, and artistic creativity, but a country?

On a specific note. I'm proud of those achievements which have brought beauty to our world. We have given the world Liberalism, Multi-Culturalism, Scientific Endevour. We have brought much to the world in the form of music, art, and literature. We have a proud history of Free Thinking. But we also invented Concentration Camps, led the way in Imperialism and the Slave Trade. We carved up the middle-east and Africa for our own purposes with not a single thought for those who lived there. We were the pioneers who charged into the new world and created a new word - Genocide. We have armed and trained most of the most evil men (and they were all men) on the planet in the last couple of hundred years. We have brought much beauty but lets not pretend we haven't brought a lot of hate and pain to the world as well.

If you love someone, or something, do you not do so 'warts and all'? If you love the good must you not love the bad? Am I not being unpatriotic just for saying these things?

I recently had to fill out a government security form that asked, amongst other things, if I have ever (or currently) opposed the Parliamentary Democracy of this country, and advocated its removal by violence or political endevours. I answered yes. Does that make me unpatriotic? If a patriot does not love there country 'as is' then what does it mean to say you love it at all?

I'm afraid I'm still with Richard Price on this one - when you say loving something "warts and all", I don't think that means loving the bad things about it. Rather, you want to improve it to the point where it is the best it can be, to love the good and deplore the bad, as RP said. He makes the distinction (which I agree with) between country and government, the latter of which is a transitory thing put in place by the people who live and vote there (back in 1789, that wasn't many of them). Countries aren't corrupt, people are - you don't love the country any less because you want a better government; surely that means you love it the more.
In my baby forays into political science for my thesis, a distinction is made between patriotism and nationalism - both have gathered many connotations around them , and indeed both can mean slightly different things in different countries. OED has:
Advocacy of or support for the interests of one's own nation, esp. to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations. Also: advocacy of or support for national independence or self-determination.
Whereas patriotism usually refers to a general sentiment, nationalism now usually refers to a specific ideology, esp. one expressed through political activism. In earlier use, however, the two appear to have been more or less interchangeable.
WRT the bad things that have come from the English government - a lot of the patriots I'm studying in the 18thC campaigned long and hard against them (slave trade especially), and they thought of themselves as loving their country more than most because they wanted to improve it.
And I wouldn't want to forget that it was the people in the country, rather than the country itself, who did them. Patriotism is an odd sentiment, one I have but don't understand - I can get bizarrely weepy when I go back to my home country (yes, even in the wind and rain!), despite the fact that my rational mind knows it's only another bit of soil - yet that bit of soil has become imbued over the centuries with the totemic symbols of my 'homeland', and I think that is part of the special something that people feel. Not that it's possible to analyse it, but hey...

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by Jayjay
Milk in Tea! Barbarian! That one is probaly fourth on the list of The Worst British Crimes, after Slavery, Israel and The Concentration Camp...[/b]

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Before Cliff Richards? Priorities, sir!

Have a nice cup of tea. Ooooooh go on. Go on.

Go on go on go on go on GO ON!

Ahem.

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Is there really a gap between Patriot and Nationalist? Isn't it just that we only tend to use the latter when we're talking about people trying to create an independent nation, rather than loving an existing one? I don't have my Oxford to hand, but Webster's says 'One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests'. Zealously. Authority. These are not words I'm overly comfortable with.

On a general note, it seems to me the patriot loves their country whatever. It is not the achievements or values of that country they admire, but the country itself, which in truth is not a real entity, but a method of government and division that is barely half a millenia old. I can understanding be proud of a culture, of a set of moral values, and artistic creativity, but a country?

On a specific note. I'm proud of those achievements which have brought beauty to our world. We have given the world Liberalism, Multi-Culturalism, Scientific Endevour. We have brought much to the world in the form of music, art, and literature. We have a proud history of Free Thinking. But we also invented Concentration Camps, led the way in Imperialism and the Slave Trade. We carved up the middle-east and Africa for our own purposes with not a single thought for those who lived there. We were the pioneers who charged into the new world and created a new word - Genocide. We have armed and trained most of the most evil men (and they were all men) on the planet in the last couple of hundred years. We have brought much beauty but lets not pretend we haven't brought a lot of hate and pain to the world as well.

If you love someone, or something, do you not do so 'warts and all'? If you love the good must you not love the bad? Am I not being unpatriotic just for saying these things?

I recently had to fill out a government security form that asked, amongst other things, if I have ever (or currently) opposed the Parliamentary Democracy of this country, and advocated its removal by violence or political endevours. I answered yes. Does that make me unpatriotic? If a patriot does not love there country 'as is' then what does it mean to say you love it at all?

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Must love be undemanding? Is not the greatest love the most exacting? I do not love this country for what it is; I love it for what it could be. An ideal. A hint of a promise. I include culture, geography and history in my affection. There is much about them I detest with the same fire that burns for their love, but what's good is so good it is worth fighting for, and that's the pounding heart of it.

I feel "patriot" means something very different to you than it does me, and I doubt anything I say will change that, and fair enough. But I want it clear how I feel.

And the worst British crime is of course the three-pound pint.

I always say I'm Scottish and not British. Does that make me patriotic or picky

I'm certainly not pariotic in any sense of the word.

To me, patriotism is a celebration of not only culture, but the 'country' just for the sake of loving the country and that seems pointless to me.

I'm Human, then i'm European, then i'm British. Being English comes at the bottom. At the end of the day though, being European, British or English is irrelevant. Every single one of us (although we could argue quite strongly that some people aren't ) is Human. We all belong to the same species.

The sooner this is recognised properly and archaic, meaningless ideals like patriotism, nationalism and state soveriengty are abandoned, the sooner we can forge ahead and achieve things that while we remain a fractured, seperated and warring species, will never be possible. The things that we could achieve as a united species are unfathomable, but they will never be realised in the current domestic and international system.

Ahem. As for patriotism, to me it means giving unshakable allegiance to ones country. Being willing to gives ones life for that country. I'm certainly not a patriot as i said. I wouldn't give my life for this country, or any other. It's just a place i live, and it's not worth my life, or anybody elses.

For me, patriotism means love of country and there is some aspect of loyalty involved in that. It has nothing to do with feeling that your country is superior to other countries or that your country can do no wrong.

I think that here in the US, some people who call themselves patriots think that patriotism means unconditional support for your country no matter how ridiculous, harmful or embarassing it or its leadership behaves. I believe that the true patriot loves his or her country enough to criticize it and its leadershp when the country is on the wrong path or behaving in a way that's detrimental to itself or others in the world. And in the end, that's the only way that things change for the better.

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by Milky
I always say I'm Scottish and not British. Does that make me patriotic or picky

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Well I reckon that makes you normal. And very lucky to be Scottish, just like me. Ahem..... #Stand firm and sure....#

*grin*

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by Milky
I always say I'm Scottish and not British. Does that make me patriotic or picky

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I think that's the same for most Scots, who have never really forgiven us English for... well.. any of it.

Well, first off, I should point out I am playing Devil's Advocate to a certain degree, to stimulate debate. And As it seems no one else (except Maff) will argue against patriotism, I'll champion that position. But that doesn't mean I'm unsympathetic, or that our definitions vary wildly and unmovingly, Byron.

As it is I've just come back from a long-weekend in the most idyllic patch of rock on this planet - the Yorkshire Dales. I know full well that warm glowy feel from being back 'home' Bee. Yorkshire, where ever I actually live, will always be home. It will always be my roots, and in both imagery and aspect it will always be a fundamental part of who I am.

But then again, as my friends who still live in Yorkshire (and most inhabitants of Yorkshire, in truth) are always keen to remind/tease me, I left. And who knows if I'll return? So would it be fair to call me a Yorkshire Patriot (certainly not nationalist as I would never argue for Yorkshire independence)? I remember when Major won the '92 election desperately wanting to be able to flee the country because the idea of another term of Tory misrule was more than I could bare, and swearing quite generally that if the won '96/'97 then I would do exactly that. And I can honestly say that if I was forced to live through another 18 years of Tory/Blair misrule I would feel the same. Yet I want the best for this country (in my opinion) and do consider myself to be British/English (after being a Tyke) and am proud of that which this country can rightfully be proud of. Am I patriot, if I want to leave if the country is not ruled the way I want? I take your point, Bee, about the C18, but we now have universal sufferage, splittiing country and government is no longer so easy.

And I take Sandia's point, especially considering the current climate across the pond where opposition to unprovoken invasion is being portrayed as not only unpatriotic, but tantamount to treachery. But what else can be expected from a political climate where 'liberal' is a dirty word, nevermind 'socialist'? And I can see how someone can say 'This is bad for my country, so as a patriot I oppose it'. However, what if you opposed a war not because it was bad for your country, but for someone else's? What if you could even see a benefit to your nation, but decided the cost to someone else's made it wrong? I could see an argument for such a stance for Korea, Viet Naam, Kuwait and Iraq, to name a few. Would that person still be a patriot?

Regarding Patriotic Love. Bee, Byron, if you're still with me, I would like you to take the words you've used above on love of country, and replace country for person. Now look on your description of Romantic Love. If I was to tell you I loved someone, but they had some serious faults, but my love for them was so strong I wanted to change them, get rid of their faults, and make them into the person I wanted them to be, would you consider this .. wholesome? would you hold out much hope of the relationship lasting? Or would you tell them they were being a .. div .. and instead of reshaping the object of their love, you should either except them as they are, or find someone more suitable?

I'm not saying wanting to change your country is wrong, just - is it compatable with a patriotic love of your country. To me, love, whether of kin, of friends, Romantic or Patriotic, is to except the object as it is, to see it's failings, but to accept it as part of the package, and to continue to love it, whether it changes to your desires or not. For instance, if the BNP (or other fascist parties for non-UK members) were swept to power and started a government that was to rule for a generation, would you still feel like a patriot?

Milky, I suspect both. Although I feel I should point out that most of the English victories were achieved through lowland Scots fighting on our side against the highlanders. Basically, was it not for the historical desire for Scots to kill other Scots it is unlikely the English would have kicked their ass quite so regularly. Although sport's a different matter...

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by Jayjay
Regarding Patriotic Love. Bee, Byron, if you're still with me, I would like you to take the words you've used above on love of country, and replace country for person. Now look on your description of Romantic Love. If I was to tell you I loved someone, but they had some serious faults, but my love for them was so strong I wanted to change them, get rid of their faults, and make them into the person I wanted them to be, would you consider this .. wholesome? would you hold out much hope of the relationship lasting? Or would you tell them they were being a .. div .. and instead of reshaping the object of their love, you should either except them as they are, or find someone more suitable?

I'm not saying wanting to change your country is wrong, just - is it compatable with a patriotic love of your country. To me, love, whether of kin, of friends, Romantic or Patriotic, is to except the object as it is, to see it's failings, but to accept it as part of the package, and to continue to love it, whether it changes to your desires or not. For instance, if the BNP (or other fascist parties for non-UK members) were swept to power and started a government that was to rule for a generation, would you still feel like a patriot?

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English can be an infuriatingly ambiguous language at times, and the concept of love isn't one of its strong suits (it could be argued we can thank our worship of stiff lips and stiffer morals for this, but I digress). Greek has different words for different types of love, which is much more sensible. My love for England isn't éros (because that would be *wrong*, not to mention impractical) but storgé or familial love. You'll forgive your family things you wouldn't a lover; I don't know if blood is thicker than water but it sure runs deep.

You can love your family when they do stupid things, even terrible things, and that's what I feel for this country. Patriotism can fuel resistance to awful deeds committed in your country's name: among the Nazi Party's most dedicated opponents were loyal Germans outraged by the damage inflicted on their nation. Patriotism can be abused, but so can any loyalty. It's the measure of a person's character that decides their actions, not the accident of their birth.

I definitely wouldn't describe myself as a patriot and would be horrified if anyone ever mistook me for a nationalist, for all the reasons others have already mentioned and which I won't bore people by repeating.

That said, I'm glad that I was born in England to English parents, because I consider that accident of birth to be one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me. It means I live in a relatively rich country which gives me opportunities (regardless of what complaints or criticisms I may have about inequalities within British society, they pale into insignificance when contrasted with the undeveloped/developing countries). It means I live in a free, democratic, fantastically multicultural, multiracial, fairly tolerant society, too. So I'm happy to be English, but that doesn't make me a patriot. Why?

I'm pleased to be English, but not proud of it: my Englishness isn't an achievement, but an accident of birth. Maybe if I was a naturalised asylum seeker, I'd feel different, I don't know (provided, of course, I didn't read the tabloids). I have a lot more in common with other English, British and Irish people than I do with anyone from another country, followed second (in no particular order) by Americans, Australians and Kiwis. Most of that's because we share a language, and because America dominates TV and cinema output.

I don't think it's what anyone's saying, but I don't accept that I should care or think more of anyone with whom I have more in common. I don't care more about the fate of someone in Newcastle or Cornwall than about someone in a mountain village in Afghanistan or a flood plain in Bangladesh.

What else is true, though, is that I suppose I understand the British psyche better than that of other nations. So I guess that makes it easier (though not right) to be more willing to forgive them.

In the history of humanity, the lines on the map haven't been there for long. I hope one day we'll learn to rub them out again.