To be honest I can't see the problem with ID cards. If you haven't got anything to hide why worry? My only concern is the amount it will cost to introduce them. Should happen quickly though - I'm sure Blunkett can rush it through in 19 days!

I think the problem might be more along the lines of "can he introduce them before he gets fired in disgrace?" One of the only occaisions I can think of where political scandal might actually be beneficial...

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by Kneon Light
If you haven't got anything to hide why worry?

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But what if your idea of "nothing to hide" is different to the government's?

Well as long as they don't put anything on them about things like my waist size or the length of my inside leg or the fact I like to wear womens clothes at the weekend (joking!), then I don't see what kind of personnel information they could put on that the government doesn't already have.

Personally I think it's a good thing cos it means that when I go to the pub there isn't any 'oh, I haven't got any ID'. The b£$%^&s will have to carry ID by LAW!

The only down side is that if I keep moving like I'm doing at the moment, my card will constantly be going back to be changed!!!!! (Ruddy Parents!)

I am not to bothered if they introduce them or not, we have managed without them so far so i can't see how we can't do the same now. What does bother me is the amount of money they will waste in introdusing these ID cards the advertisments alone with come to tens of thousands, now i think that money could benifit school or even policing

I have been carrying an Europian IDcard around with me for years. It allows me to travel within the EU and it's a standard item in my wallet next to my drivers license. Nowadays they have them in creditcard format so they fit any wallet (still need to get me one of those but mine's still valid for for atleast another year so getting my moneys worth out of this one first ).

The only time I'm asked for my idea:
- When I travel by airplane
- A few years back to buy some booze (they stopped doing that for some reason...... am I starting to look old?)
- And everyday until I had a security badge when I worked for the military.

Aslong as you keep your nose clean and you stay out of harms way the police isn't just gonna ask you for your id. Normally I'm driving so my drivers license and a breath test is all they want from me

However it does help that you can identify people directly when trouble occurs. It makes it harder for people to fake their identity and thereby helps the police better assessing the situation. Faking id's doesn't only apply to terrorists but also to immigrants if you need an id for loads more things there is a larger chance they get caught at some point.

IDcards normally don't have anything more on them than your name a picture where you live etc. Possibly some biometric info. Guess what your next drivers license will contain all that too so will your passport and possible even more.

In this day and age it just becomes necessary to be able to establish without a doubt someone's identity. Times change... deal with it.

I don't have a problem with it. In fact it'll probably come in handy for those who look too young for alcohol like I did. (I was still getting asked for ID at 24!)

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by Lioness
I don't have a problem with it. In fact it'll probably come in handy for those who look too young for alcohol like I did. (I was still getting asked for ID at 24!)

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Couldn't they get a proof of age card?

ID cards do far more than prove who you are. They give the state more power over you. ID cards will contain personal biometric data (fingerprints, DNA and the like). At the moment the only reason you can be forced to give biometrics is if you're accused of a crime. Do you want to be treated like a criminal? Do you trust the government with your most personal data? They've already been caught trying to flog databases to private companies.

We've had ID cards before, in World War Two. They were kept after the war because the police said they needed them but were abolished by Winston Churchill in 1953 after Judge Goddard said giving police the power to demand an ID card "from all and sundry, for instance, from a lady who may leave her car outside a shop longer than she should", made people resentful of the police and "inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them". And they were just bits of cardboard. It'll be worse now.

ID cards reverse the balance of power between you and the state. Give the police the power to demand "Your papers please" means you have to justify what you're doing, instead of them justify interfering. Do you want to have to explain yourself? Can you always be confident you have "nothing to hide"? Always be confident the government won't decide you have somethign to hide? I can't see anything the government have done to earn such vast trust, but plenty they've done that means they should be denied it.

Chamb says ID cards don't cause a problem in the Netherlands, and it's not for me to dispute that. But we're a very different country, with a more authoritatian government. What works for one doesn't automatically work for the other.

Whenever the government wants to increase their power, for whatever reason, the burden is on them to justify it. It can only be healthy to be suspicious of the state until they prove otherwise. As yet they haven't given any convicing justification for ID cards. If we're giving the government such a vast increase in power I say we're entitled to something more substantial than "Times change... deal with it."

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by Kneon Light
To be honest I can't see the problem with ID cards. If you haven't got anything to hide why worry? My only concern is the amount it will cost to introduce them. Should happen quickly though - I'm sure Blunkett can rush it through in 19 days!

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I agree with you on both points. I have absolutely no concern in having one. However, the costs which are now being mentioned do seem a little steep.

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by Byron
But what if your idea of "nothing to hide" is different to the government's?

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That's interesting because I can only interpret "nothing" in one way.

Alas, in a world where some organisations believe that the best way to express their opinions is the blow things up, I'd be more than happy to have something to hand that proved that I am who I say I am and have absolutely no hang-ups about it.

No doubt this Christmas I, as a driver, will be pulled over and randomly breath-tested by the Police. It's happened in the past I in no way felt like a criminal when it happened. I have no issues blowing into the device if it proves that I'm not going to be a danger to other people just getting on with their lives.

If by being able to produce ID on request, I can prove that I'm kosher, that's fine by me.

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by gobstopper
That's interesting because I can only interpret "nothing" in one way.

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You attend a protest, and say it's nothing wrong.

The police say it makes you a threat.

Continue on this tack at your own pace.

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Alas, in a world where some organisations believe that the best way to express their opinions is the blow things up, I'd be more than happy to have something to hand that proved that I am who I say I am and have absolutely no hang-ups about it.

No doubt this Christmas I, as a driver, will be pulled over and randomly breath-tested by the Police. It's happened in the past I in no way felt like a criminal when it happened. I have no issues blowing into the device if it proves that I'm not going to be a danger to other people just getting on with their lives.

If by being able to produce ID on request, I can prove that I'm kosher, that's fine by me.

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Spain has ID cards. And the Madrid bombing. The government say they'll stop terrorists without explaining how. Grand statements without evidence are worthless.

You choose to have a driver's liscence and choose to drive at Christmas knowing stop and search is a risk. I choose to surrender a limited amount of privacy to have a passport. Fine. But no choice in ID cards, and far fewer limits on who will have access to the data. You feel the need to "prove you're kosher", I find it an affront anyone would expect me to.

As i said in the last debate on this issue, i really don't have a problem with them. not at all, so what if people know stuff about me. They probably know it all already anyways... *shrugs*

(Edited by lil_miss 06/12/2004 17:12)

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by lil_miss
As i said in the last debate on this issue, i really don't have a problem with them. not at all, so what if people know stuff about me. They probably know it all already anyways... *shrugs*

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But they don't know it already unless you're a felon.

Hummmm ...

Well, i'm not a felon, but still, i really don't care. Just not bothered by it at all. Be a bit different if they installed CCTV in my bedroom, but they're not, so i don't give as flying monkey

Im still waiting for someone fom the goverment to give me an answer on how they cut down on crime and terrorism.

Werent the 9/11 hijackers offically in the US on offical papers. Mardrid has already been mentioned as having ID card which didnt stop it.

I also think of it as being a Tax on being alive.

Interestingly, every single known terrorist who's blown things up, made weapons and flown planes into buildings in the last few years has had a fake passport, with an invalid/marked as stolen serial number (according to Interpol). A centralised database of these serial numbers - which numbers in the millions - exists.

Passport serial numbers are not checked when you enter the UK. They never have been. They haven't been post-9/11. They probably never will be.

I got on a flight from Manchester to Aberdeen the other day. I turned up at the airport, and did a 'self service' checkin at a machine. I entered my flight reference number, and the flight number. It printed me tickets. I walked onto the plane. There was no security. They didn't ask for id. In fact, they didn't ask for anything. Nobody spoke to me.

I work for a very large service company we all depend on day-to-day to be able to survive. We've never once been given any guidance what-so-ever about UK security, and if somebody attacked us, there's absolutely no backup plans what so ever. You'd all be screwed.

But we all know everything possible is being done to fight terrorist. Just look at that government security department, liasing with businesses and service companies, launching critical infrasture plans, monitoring things... Oh, wait, there isn't any.

But never mind! We're doing all we can! I hear people on the news all the time giving us speeches about terrorism being a world priority, how we're fighting the war on terror by blowing up hospitals and children in Iraq, a country which our own security services tell us posed no threat, and had no links to 9/11.

But, hey, give me an ID card! That'll help fight the global network and axis of terror coming to blow us all up in our sleep.

(Edited by Kevin 06/12/2004 18:28)

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by lil_miss
Well, i'm not a felon, but still, i really don't care. Just not bothered by it at all. Be a bit different if they installed CCTV in my bedroom, but they're not, so i don't give as flying monkey

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Surrendering small freedoms makes it easier for the government to take major ones.

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by Byron
(quotes)
But what if your idea of "nothing to hide" is different to the government's?

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Can you give me a couple of examples. I can't think of anything I could possibly want to keep hidden (apart from a few websites I may have looked at when my wifes been out!)

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by Byron
(quotes)
Surrendering small freedoms makes it easier for the government to take major ones.

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Really depends on which theory you would like to follow but I can't deny that there are theories that would say that...... but there are also ones saying the opposit.

And they aren't limiting your freedom except if you want to say that walking around with an additional creditcard sized card in your wallet is limiting your freedom. The police already have the authority to ask you who you are in given situations. It will just speed up the process if you actually carry id on you.

And whats wrong with biometric information? What would you like to do with a fingerprint or an irisscan? If you store DNA on it it will just be a DNA fingerprint which is enough to identify you but not enough to do much else with. They won't store your entire gnome on that little card! Personally I think the argument of the "government" could sell this information at a later stage is pretty stupid. If you really believe that why do you have a bankaccount and a telephone and an internet account? Way more valuable information for commercial organizations and you are trusting them with it! Personally I think that the chances that something leaks (ooh how many newsitems haven't we seen over the years of online stores hacked and hackers getting all the customer information, or banks messing up on that department.....) than the goverment especially seeing that the information at least in this day and age is a lot more valuable than a partial gnome and an irisscan combined with a fingerprint!

Sure not everything is being done against terrorists and a lot more should be done and what is being done isn't always as optimal either...... More should be done but that doesn't mean that you should block the efforts being made.

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by Chambler
Really depends on which theory you would like to follow but I can't deny that there are theories that would say that...... but there are also ones saying the opposit.

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Of course there are, everything has an opposite. What does stating this have to do with your case, or indeed anything?

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And they aren't limiting your freedom except if you want to say that walking around with an additional creditcard sized card in your wallet is limiting your freedom. The police already have the authority to ask you who you are in given situations. It will just speed up the process if you actually carry id on you.

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ID cards extends their authority from suspected criminals to anyone they choose to hassle for their papers. The burden of evidence shifts to you to prove yourself innocent. This is why we abolished ID cards last time.

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And whats wrong with biometric information? What would you like to do with a fingerprint or an irisscan? If you store DNA on it it will just be a DNA fingerprint which is enough to identify you but not enough to do much else with. They won't store your entire gnome on that little card! Personally I think the argument of the "government" could sell this information at a later stage is pretty stupid. If you really believe that why do you have a bankaccount and a telephone and an internet account? Way more valuable information for commercial organizations and you are trusting them with it! Personally I think that the chances that something leaks (ooh how many newsitems haven't we seen over the years of online stores hacked and hackers getting all the customer information, or banks messing up on that department.....) than the goverment especially seeing that the information at least in this day and age is a lot more valuable than a partial gnome and an irisscan combined with a fingerprint!

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This paragraph is all quite baffling. Of course biometric information is more valuable that credit details and address. They can't be used to categorise and incriminate you like biometrics can. You can't be done for non-financial crimes the strength of a crappy credit rating. "Excuse me sir, you are accused of murder, I have here a court warrant to compel you to hand over your visa card." If the biometric information wasn't so valuable the government wouldn't be willing to shell out over a billion pounds to collect it.

And you might want to have a look what government darlings IT firm EDS have been upto in the past.

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Sure not everything is being done against terrorists and a lot more should be done and what is being done isn't always as optimal either...... More should be done but that doesn't mean that you should block the efforts being made.

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Depends if the "efforts being made" actually increase security or just increase government power.

(Edited by Byron 09/12/2004 15:40)