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by KaTiEStar
Now the govenment want to ban gypsies from parking anywhere...where are they suposed to live?? They wont give them actual legal sites to live on so what are they suposed to do?

Its like telling an eskimo "You cant live in your house of ice anymore because we want to build flats."

Its not fair to take away a life style of a community just because tony blair and his idiots cant be bothered to find land for them to live.

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Why shouldnt they be banned from parking anywhere, the rest of us cant. And why should Tony Blair and taxpayers fund the lifestyle these people have chose by finding land for them. You cant have one set of rules for some people and one set of rules for another.

Im not saying have one set for some and then one for another.

The council builds houses for people dont they? Thats surely a different rule for people who live in houses then?

I just want them to suply somewhere for them to live, just as they do with people who dont live in caravans.

Why shoudl they have to live in a house? If someone said we should all just live in a box just because someone on the street does, we wouldnt all do it, would we?

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by KaTiEStar
Now the govenment want to ban gypsies from parking anywhere...where are they suposed to live?? They wont give them actual legal sites to live on so what are they suposed to do?

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Modern society isn't very well equipt to deal with the "special needs" of the travellers. If they can't function within the set boundries of the law that is their problem really....

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Its like telling an eskimo "You cant live in your house of ice anymore because we want to build flats."

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Well if the house of ice isn't built on ground which is owned by them which has been designated a housing area his house of ice will have to. Also we don't expect the government to build huge fridges and keep the doors open so his house doesn't melt do we?

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Its not fair to take away a life style of a community just because tony blair and his idiots cant be bothered to find land for them to live.

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The government cannot facilitate every life style. There are regulations on the ritual slaughtering of animals for example although that is part of some peoples life style and even is part of a religion! Also if that eskimo fellow would to be able to build his house of ice (might also be tricky to fit within building regulation btw ) he might have to expect to be homeless 9 and 9 months out of 10 years And does that mean we as a society pay the bill for the other 9 years and 9 months?

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A man in Wickford, near me, sold some of his land to the gypsies so they had somewhere to live, and the local council are trying to evict them because they dont want them there.

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If the land hasn't been assigned for housing etc you cannot live on it, it is illegal and they can't live there.... just like the rest of us can't. So why should they be allowed to break the law? And if the land would be assigned for building a project developer would have bought it for a shitload of money to build houses on which is why we have to pay so much for the houses and they should get it for free or for a lot less? Doesn't seem very fair to the rest now does it?

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We home asylum seekers and have forgien students in our country, yet they wont let people who have been in this country for hundreds of years live how they always have.

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Yes we fit these asylum seekers and foreign students within the rules and boundaries of modern society. I haven't seen them handing out tents and camels and goats to groups of asylum seekers just yet so they keep their old lifestyle. If the travelers would sign up for a council home they would also get one.... but they don't want to.
We expect all social groups to adept their ways to the modern rules of our society if you cannot that is your problem not society's.

So buy a plot of land which is assigned for building and put mobile homes on it that fit all building regulations.... If you can't or don't want too though luck. Live by the rules just like all of us have to.... I don't see how that is unfair.

The land they are on has planning permission.

There is so much space across england that is just unused fields, why not let the gypsies develope areas like that?

If they had just turned up in this country then id say yes, make them convert to our ways. But gypsies have been in this country, living like this for hundreds of years.

How is it fair to make them change now? Its like saying 'sorry, we are getting rid of the jewish faith now, please be something else.'

Its stupid.

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by KaTiEStar
Most of you will know that my grandmothers side of the family were/are romany gypsies and have been for a very very long time.

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by KaTiEStar
I feel utterly disgusted by the treatment that some people have recently been giving 'travelers.'

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I thought there was a difference between Romany gypsies and the dirty pikeys that leave their rubbish all over the place once they move on.

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by KaTiEStar
The land they are on has planning permission.

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And did their "homes" fit the rules for the planning permission. There might be planning permission but still not everything is allowed to be built on it?

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There is so much space across england that is just unused fields, why not let the gypsies develope areas like that?

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Okay but than I should be allowed to build my house in the middle of a field as the ground is dirt cheap..... And is that allowed?

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If they had just turned up in this country then id say yes, make them convert to our ways. But gypsies have been in this country, living like this for hundreds of years.

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Well no offense but the people living in the "highlands" aren't running around like Braveheart and his merry men now are they? People adepted to the changes in society... the travelers haven't.

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How is it fair to make them change now? Its like saying 'sorry, we are getting rid of the jewish faith now, please be something else.'

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Religions have adopted to the ways of modern society. Stuff like female genital mutilation or in a nicer word female circumcision isn't legally praticed in the UK although these religions where imported in the time the UK still had a blooming slave trade . And the Jews aren't allowed to follow through on all their religious rights either in modern society

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by Teresa
(quotes)

(quotes)

I thought there was a difference between Romany gypsies and the dirty pikeys that leave their rubbish all over the place once they move on.

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As usual, Teresa has eloquently summed up my thoughts on the matter. I have no problem woith Romany Gypsies. It's the travellers that just decide to park up anywhere, cause a nuisance and generally trash an area and create misery for the local law-abiding, tax-paying people that annoy me.

The campaigne against them is aimed at travelers, gypsies, romany gypsies, everyone.

There is a diffence between them but people dont seem to notice that.

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by KaTiEStar
The campaigne against them is aimed at travelers, gypsies, romany gypsies, everyone.

There is a diffence between them but people dont seem to notice that.

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The Sun were defending the 'proper' gypsies.

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by KaTiEStar
Im not saying have one set for some and then one for another.

The council builds houses for people dont they? Thats surely a different rule for people who live in houses then?

I just want them to suply somewhere for them to live, just as they do with people who dont live in caravans.

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People who live in council houses dont live in them for free they pay rent. They also pay one other thing that gypsies dont its called council tax, along with various other taxes.

Are the gypsies going to pay rent for the space they occupy? why should they get it for free.

On the planning permission issue you do relise that just because the land has permission for building on it, it has to be in the exact plans that were submitted.

Yup, The Sun were actually targetting the 'travellers' as opposed to Romany Gypsies. It's always the former that turn up in a local field or the car park of B&Q who cuase the problems.

My Dad works at B&Q and one of their staff was thumped by one of these travellers who had set up 'camp' in the car park, although what caused it I can't remember now.

So, I'm sorry, this is one Sun campaign that I actually support.

Originaly is was about all.

Even so, just because some of them start fights and whatever doesnt mean they all do.

And have they been asked if they'd pay tax?

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by JtB
(quotes)
People who live in council houses dont live in them for free they pay rent. They also pay one other thing that gypsies dont its called council tax, along with various other taxes.

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Actually that's not quite true.

People in council houses, or in private rented accommodation and are on low incomes can actually claim what is called Housing & Council Tax Benefit. If their income is low or they are on Income Support basically they pay no rent or council tax

So some of the population do actually live rent & council tax free regardless of it being council property or private property.

The benefit has to come from somewhere and it's usually from that big pot the government look after that our taxes disappear into

/me looks around the room at all the Daily Mail and Sun readers in here. Jeez what a load of hardliners.

Romani people seem to get a hard time of it where ever they go sadly. I know there must be some genuine anger at the mess/noise/whatever caused by some groups of travelers but to target romani is just racism. And where as people on here may understand the idea that its the behaviour of people they have a problem with, and not their race, there are plenty of people who will blindly take it out on the whole race.

I'm really glad i dont live in a world where Chambler is president. Phew! So if society decides at large that you're to live in a hole in the ground Chambler, are you going to do it without question? Remember what society was doing at large in World War II in Germany...didn't make it right though.

I understand the viewpoint about one rule for one, and another for another, but I don't really agree with it. Romani are a special case. For one, they don't have a home to begin with. The Roma came from India a few thousand years ago and were thought to have been mercanaries fighting in a war back then. They have been nomads for thousands of years, this is not a matter of their religion, or their preferences but a fundamental part of who they are. Governments of today have a moral obligation to provide sites for these people in the same way they have the moral obligiation to provide things like free healthcare and benefits to those who need it.

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by Funky Monkey
I'm really glad i dont live in a world where Chambler is president. Phew! So if society decides at large that you're to live in a hole in the ground Chambler, are you going to do it without question? Remember what society was doing at large in World War II in Germany...didn't make it right though.

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Uhmm my country in nationstates did really well when I was still playing that so can't be such a bad president

It could be that the UK history books are slightly different from the Dutch but German society at large was not in favour of what was happening between 1939 - 1945. An ironfist dictatorship with the certain promise of death (and possibly that of your family) enforced by a relatively small but roughtless "band of merry men" also known as the SS & the Gestapo can make a country do pretty much whatever you want. Sure he got into power because of his plans of stopping hyperinflation, stimulating the German economy and whipping out unemployment. In a crashed economy in 1933 who wouldn't vote for that? They didn't vote for him to kill 6 million Jews between 1939 - 1945!

But to get back on subject... If society at large decided that living in a hole in the ground is the way to go than you should expect some problems if you want to build a (for us) normal home. For example where will I find the builders that have anything else but diggers and how and where would I find planning permission for something that clearly doesn't fit into a normal residential area and could seriously impact on the people already living in that area.

Just because I'm a special needs group doesn't mean that the government should be held responsible for the lack of builders with the specific compitences you are looking for and they certainly shouldn't pay for you to get them.

Yet we expect them to supply (preferbly for free) sites for travellers to live at the drop of a hat? There are costs involved, facilities need to be made available to that site etc but who is going to pay for it as these people are, as the name itself says, travellers so they might not be here in a couple of years. Tricky Tricky...

If I want something that is "different" from the norm I should expect to run into some difficulties and I should expect to pay more for it. Finding builders that can build houses instead of holes is undoubtfully gonna cost me more effort and money. Thats the way the market and society works. (with some exception for like handicapt etc as thats sponsorred by the government but please don't tell me that the travellers are "housing" imparred)

In my first post in this thread I said modern society is not well equipt to properly deal with "travellers". This means that they will have to put some extra effort in just like I would have to if I wanted to build a house in a country that lives in holes. I shouldn't expect a handout by the government.... Especially not if I had a seriously bad image as a group. Might want to work on that first You say you are a "tight" group well police yourself a little bit more and root out all the unwanted and negative elements within your group. Preferably in a way that is within the existing laws of course

Also there are loads of other things to keep in mind. For example you can't just start a camp for travellers near a residential area.... House prices around that area will drop drastically.... not really nice for the people that already live there now is it? You also have to keep their rights and needs in mind or is that just though luck for them? These aren't easy choices to make for a city council.

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by Funky Monkey
Romani people seem to get a hard time of it where ever they go sadly. I know there must be some genuine anger at the mess/noise/whatever caused by some groups of travelers but to target romani is just racism. And where as people on here may understand the idea that its the behaviour of people they have a problem with, and not their race, there are plenty of people who will blindly take it out on the whole race.

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Good thing it's not targeted at Romani then. And besides which just because idiots cannot fathom that something isn't racism doesn't make it inherently so.

I have no problem with gypsies, from what I understand they rarely stay in one place for long anyway so most of the things that people complain about (littering, squatting in car parks, etc) wouldn't even apply to them.

My Nan lives in Birmingham just a short way from the city centre, and years ago there were travellers (note: not saying gypsies) who camped up on the park right where she lived. They made a complete state of the place and basically claimed it for themselves, not even letting the local kids kick a football about. That I'm against.

There are actually travellers on the outskirts of my home town now who shacked up first on the edge of a roundabout, and made a state there, and have now moved to the car park of the local athletics stadium. That, I'm against.

There's a flaw in the logic of asking to provide land for a people who never stay in one place very long. What needs doing is for those gypsises who live peacefully among society and don't cause trouble (and there are plentiful people who are sympathetic to them and let them pitch up for a short time on their land) to be seperated from travellers who basically leave a mess wherever they go, as they need to be sanctioned or in extreme cases deported back to where they came from (afaik there's a large number who've come from Ireland in recent years)

I used to be sympathetic to gypsies, until they broke into my house and stole heap loads of stuff. I do however like the traditional Romany types, they can actually be really lovely. We have a young family living down our drive and they're lovely and won't harm anyone. They're total hippies.

I think it's disgusting how some travellers can leave sites in such a mess. They (some) lack common courtesy to others and the natural environment.

Asylum seekers actually do some good for the country. We talk about this in Sociology a lot. If they're gonna do the toilet cleaning jobs and give us the chance to aspire to achieve our goals in high paid jobs, who cares?!

Ah a classic "chambler the rambler" reply

The hole in the ground thing was just an example that what is "normal" is not neccesarily what we should all have to bow down to. Lets not get into the details of building materials and diggers, it was just an analogy and a poor one at that.

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by Chambler
(quotes)
... but German society at large was not in favour of what was happening between 1939 - 1945. An ironfist dictatorship with the certain promise of death (and possibly that of your family) enforced by a relatively small but roughtless "band of merry men" also known as the SS & the Gestapo can make a country do pretty much whatever you want.

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In that case this illustrates how a society can be co-erced into its norms.

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Sure he got into power because of his plans of stopping hyperinflation, stimulating the German economy and whipping out unemployment.

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And they bought it. Same way that people buy some campaign in a trashy newspaper and end up committing racist acts against Romani. In some eastern european countries Romani have been set on fire by people who hate them. They were also purged in the concentration camps along with the jews.

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but who is going to pay for it as these people are, as the name itself says, travellers so they might not be here in a couple of years. Tricky Tricky...

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It's not that tricky really, if the government spent money on facilities they would have less of the problems caused by unauthorised sites and probably save money in the long run.

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You say you are a "tight" group well police yourself a little bit more and root out all the unwanted and negative elements within your group.

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Oh come on! People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Our nations native populations have plenty of problem people, take chavs as an example.

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You also have to keep their rights and needs in mind or is that just though luck for them? These aren't easy choices to make for a city council.

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Granted - you do need to consider the needs of others. Doesn't mean that governments shouldn't be trying to solve a problem that isn't about to go away.

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by lizzieslayer
I used to be sympathetic to gypsies, until they broke into my house and stole heap loads of stuff.

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For one, by "gypsies" you're referring to a race of people, and it can be considered in the pejorative at that. I'm sure you can see that if you reworded your phrase as:

"I used to be sympathetic to paki's, until they broke into my house and stole heap loads of stuff.", that it doesn't sound so good? I'm not having a go - i reckon you just weren't aware of that.

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If they're gonna do the toilet cleaning jobs and give us the chance to aspire to achieve our goals in high paid jobs, who cares?!

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*winces* Is that all they're good for? That's already the case in America where Hispanics primarily do the menial jobs other Americans don't want to do.