Whatever the truth of the matter, the way Howard has raised it is a blatant play to the basest racism in society. He's attempting to do to gipsies what he previously visited on gay people. Going with what he knows, heÂ’s decided identifying a new nigger is a reliable currency for buying votes.

And all from the son of Jewish refugees.

Michael Howard is a _ _ _ _ (hangman anyone?) and is an asylum seeker himself.

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by lizzieslayer
Michael Howard is a _ _ _ _ (hangman anyone?) and is an asylum seeker himself.

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Tory

I win

(btw Byron I wouldn't have thought the 'n' word was appropriate language on here, n'est pas?)

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by Spikeo
(quotes)

(btw Byron I wouldn't have thought the 'n' word was appropriate language on here, n'est pas?)

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Don't see why not in the context in which Byron used it. It illustrated his point perfectly and wasn't offensively aimed at any person or group of people.

What's wrong with the word scapegoat?

Besides doesn't a word most commonly used as a racist slur fall under improper material under the T&Cs?

*shrug* funny how this site works sometimes

There's no complete ban on racist words. Obviously using them to abuse people is out, but the way I used word condemns the thinking behind it.

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by Spikeo
What's wrong with the word scapegoat?

Besides doesn't a word most commonly used as a racist slur fall under improper material under the T&Cs?

*shrug* funny how this site works sometimes

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Words are offensive because of the way they are used, not because of an order of letters.

The word nigger isn't offensive if it's used in a non-offensive way. It shouldn't be completely banned from any use at all. He could of used scapegoat, but in the context he used it, nigger fit perfectly well and wasn't 'wrong'.

Indeed. "Nigger" sums up in a word the underlying mindset of Howard's nasty little campaign. It says more than "scapegoat" alone could. An ugly word for an ugly thing.

So beating someone like a nigger (in a boxing match, for example) would be acceptable then

(Edited by Spikeo 26/03/2005 21:35)

No. If you want further clarification on our policy, you can take this to feedback. Otherwise, back on topic we go.

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by Byron
Whatever the truth of the matter, the way Howard has raised it is a blatant play to the basest racism in society. He's attempting to do to gipsies what he previously visited on gay people. Going with what he knows, heÂ’s decided identifying a new nigger is a reliable currency for buying votes.

And all from the son of Jewish refugees.

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I wasn't going to get into this dicussion but after seeing this I had to. How on earth can you use the word nigger when you have no idea what black people have to through every day for me that just shows your blatant ignorance for what blacks go thorough and I'm saying that as a black person and you have no right to try and compare this situation to what blacks go through. If you want to debate this start a new tread and I will be glad to debate it with you, please be aware that debating is my one true talent especially on this subject matter.

*** The Alan's Idiotic Post Party would like to apologise in advance for any offence caused in this insomniac ramble of a post, as none is intended, intentionally or otherwise. Have a nice day! ***

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by Byron
Whatever the truth of the matter, the way Howard has raised it is a blatant play to the basest racism in society. He's attempting to do to gipsies what he previously visited on gay people. Going with what he knows, heÂ’s decided identifying a new nigger is a reliable currency for buying votes.

And all from the son of Jewish refugees.

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by pimpdaddy
I wasn't going to get into this dicussion but after seeing this I had to. How on earth can you use the word nigger when you have no idea what black people have to through every day for me that just shows your blatant ignorance for what blacks go thorough and I'm saying that as a black person and you have no right to try and compare this situation to what blacks go through. If you want to debate this start a new tread and I will be glad to debate it with you, please be aware that debating is my one true talent especially on this subject matter.

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pimpdaddy: I have to say, as a white, reasonably well-off and well-educated person raised by a typical family in a Western state who doesn't (and isn't going to presume to) know what it's like to be victimised on account of race/religion/anything else I can think of/etc. (well, my Grandma on my Dad's side is from Maritius but I digress) so I'm not disagreeing with you as such, but I'm not sure if you get what (I think) Byron was trying to say - that politicians using prejudice to buy votes or sway mass opinion is nothing short of disgusting as it shows no respect or consideration for those used as a scapegoat or what they go through - whether it's racism, homophobia, an irrational urge to cut the heads of upper-class French people or whatever, it's still unacceptable - something I'm sure you'll likely agree on with Byron.

Judging from your reaction to Byron's use of the notorious "N-word", I'd guess you have a pretty damn good understanding of what it's like to be unfairly victimised - but then when was being a victim ever fair? - and Byron was using "nigger" (and any and all stereotypes and feelings associated with it) as an example to criticise people using this kind of ignorance to further any kind of agenda or gain, political or otherwise. Would it have been any different if he'd used (and apologies in advance for using these terms): Paki? Chink? Spic? Redneck? Queer? *goes to wash keyboard out with soap*

Not knowing you personally, pimpdaddy, I can't say I know whether or not you've experienced any other kind of prejudice first-hand, or whether you yourself have unfairly looked upon/judged/etc. others through prejudiced views eg. stereotypes (and I'm certainly not suggesting you do) but I'm sure you can think of examples of other people of any particular social division you know or know of who've been unfairly judged by ignorant idiots. (I'm desperately trying to remember what my point was - and I did have one - but I'm tired and need coffee, or sleep, I can't remember which)

Can you honestly say you've never been guilty of showing prejudice of any group in particular, or that you've allowed such prejudice to influence your decisions, such as voting? Or that because of what you've experienced through being a victim of racism, that any other kind of prejudice is any less unacceptable? From what Byron later said in his post; stating Michael Howard is "the son of Jewish refugees" (hence referring to the time-honoured cliché used in many an argument of alluding to the Jewish Holocaust of WW2); for example, you can't honestly say that to prejudge someone because of their religion, their social practices, their sexual orientation - or for relevant example, whether they live in a house, a caravan or what-the-hell-ever, is any different to the way people have treated you because you're black, can you? Or that what they've gone through because what ignorant morons think of them is any different to what you go through?

Simply put, I really don't think Byron was showing any disrespect but trying to illustrate a point on how the distastefulness of such election strategies, etc.

Byron: For Pete's sake, be more careful with your choice of words, you bloody twerp! Now go and apologise!

Right, now the pair of you hug and shake hands or I swear I'll whack you both with this keyboard!

*** The Alan's Idiotic Post Party would again like to apologise for any offence caused in this insomniac ramble of a post, as none was intended, intentionally or otherwise. Have a nice day! ***

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by Spikeo
(quotes)

Tory

I win

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Have a cookie!

(Edited by lizzieslayer 27/03/2005 12:09)

Just because a word is not said in order to cause offence, doesn't mean it won't.

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by pimpdaddy
(quotes)
I wasn't going to get into this dicussion but after seeing this I had to. How on earth can you use the word nigger when you have no idea what black people have to through every day for me that just shows your blatant ignorance for what blacks go thorough and I'm saying that as a black person and you have no right to try and compare this situation to what blacks go through. If you want to debate this start a new tread and I will be glad to debate it with you, please be aware that debating is my one true talent especially on this subject matter.

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I'm reminded of how Lenny Bruce's answered condemnation of his infamous "Nigger" sketch. "I'm Jewish, we've been the Christians' nigger for 2,000 years."

His point wasn't that being Jewish gave him special dispensation to use the word; it was that claiming ownership rights over a particular form of prejudice reinforces the divisions bigotry thrives on. You haven't just taken offence at me using the word, you've taken offence at the idea anti-black prejudice and anti-gipsy prejudice can be compared.

I apologise if my use of the racist word offended you, but not for saying all racism is equal.

OK I can see why the use of the said word was considered offensive, and perhaps the way the point was made was in a brief 'off the cuff' manner that Byron didnt take time justify, but I believe that a valid point was being made.

One doesnt need to have insight into the day to day experience of black people to be aware that (primarily) in the States and South Africa black people were Governmentally targetted as a scapegoat for society's ills (as opposed to facing 'only' societally born racism in other countries).

(and to be clear the 'only' was not meant to imply an lessening of the emotional impact of non-institutionalised racism)

Its clear that certain attempts are made by most governments to 'offload' some blame of societal disquiet from time to time, go back a while and it was probably single parent mothers, more recently asylum seekers, lawless teenagers etc. Fortunately (or unfortunately for the purpose of this point), there is no highly derogatory term for these groups.

It should be clear that by using the term in question, Byron was identifying Travellers as a political 'target', in much the same way that segregation and apartheid 'officially' targeted and stripped black people of their rights in those specific countries, reducing people to the N word in the eyes of the law, and not just the minds of the people.

The point may not have been made in the most subtle and tactful way, but then this is Byron we are talking about who is somewhat tact deficient at the best of times (also fortunately there isnt and N word equivalent for that kind of person either! )

Mental note: In future, wait a while, then put "What Wo said!"

Using the "n" word to illustrate a point is all well and good, but and it's obviously a hot-button word and will always provoke a reaction and often distracts people from the point being made. Might I suggest a more cautious approach in future debate.

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by Miss Corrupt
Just because a word is not said in order to cause offence, doesn't mean it won't.

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by Kate
Using the "n" word to illustrate a point is all well and good, but and it's obviously a hot-button word and will always provoke a reaction and often distracts people from the point being made. Might I suggest a more cautious approach in future debate.

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just seconding.

And to think I got my wrists slapped for saying shi.... er....poo.