Actually, I really don't think that the Roman Catholic Church can be held repsonsible for the African AIDS epidemic. Only around 25% of Africa is considered "Christian" at all, obviously that being divided between Catholic and Protestant churches.

However, very high numbers (40% in Burkina Faso, for example) still follow indigenous beliefs. I saw a documentary a couple of years ago that stated that South African witch doctors were telling AIDS sufferers that if the had sex with a virgin they would be cured. It became fairly commonplace for men with HIV and AIDS to sexually assault babies and young children - just to be sure of a virgin.

Also, women have a higher infection rate than men in Africa (approximately twice the amount) and one of the main reasons for this is that women have no power to insist that their partner uses a condom. Many women cannot even insist that their husband doesn't use prostitutes, under threat of violence.

While there are many reasons not to mourn the passing of John Paul II, this is not one of them.

Also, while you are entitled to your opinion, you have to bear in mind that your remarks could be deemed offensive and inflammatory to any Roman Catholics among the membership here. (that's not to say that I disagree - just that there may be more diplomatic ways of putting it )

Byron? Be diplomatic? I think we have more chance of it getting nippy in Hell first....

I don't care if one man dies, he's just a regular old man. Because of him, the rising Catholicism in Africa, more people are not using contraception and contracting AIDS.

I'm not particularly religious and not a Roman Catholic but there are millions out there who are both. Whether you agree with him or share that religion is irrelevant at this moment in time. A man is dying so maybe a little respect wouldn't go amiss here.

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by Keenangel
I'm not particularly religious and not a Roman Catholic but there are millions out there who are both. Whether you agree with him or share that religion is irrelevant at this moment in time. A man is dying so maybe a little respect wouldn't go amiss here.

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Agreed.

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by Keenangel
A man is dying so maybe a little respect wouldn't go amiss here.

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What if you dont respect him though, he is leader of a corrupt and vile organisation.

Then that is your opinion. There are others who don't share that opinion. (personally i don't have an opinion either way on the subject)

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by Keenangel
I'm not particularly religious and not a Roman Catholic but there are millions out there who are both. Whether you agree with him or share that religion is irrelevant at this moment in time. A man is dying so maybe a little respect wouldn't go amiss here.

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Plus my Grandpa is in hospital, and I'd rather feel sorry for him than for a man I don't know. Well I have little respect for him, but anyway I don't want to offend anybody. To me, he is just a man. And I don't want to turn this into a big debate, so I'm ending this subject now

(Edited by lizzieslayer 01/04/2005 21:54)

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by JtB
(quotes)

What if you dont respect him though, he is leader of a corrupt and vile organisation.

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amazing how people can simply ignore all the good the Catholic church does. CAFOD????

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by Keenangel
A man is dying so maybe a little respect wouldn't go amiss here.

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There are certain people on this board who clearly have absolutely no idea what respect is.

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by Kneon Light
(quotes)

There are certain people on this board who clearly have absolutely no idea what respect is.

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If that's aimed at me, you know nothing about me. And a lot people on here, can vouch for me being very respectful. My Grandpa is very ill in hospital, I'm sorry I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for a man I've never met. Ok?

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by Kate
Actually, I really don't think that the Roman Catholic Church can be held repsonsible for the African AIDS epidemic.

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Held responsible, no, I agree. Contributed? Definitely. A substantial amount of Africa and Latin America is catholic, and many clinics are run by the catholic church. I don't tar every Roman Catholic with the same brush, much of the blame lies with the clique of hardline conservatives currently running the Vatican. In the past few months they've been off again, spreading lies about condoms letting the Aids virus through.

There's plenty other things I'm none too fond of John Paul II for, but his line on this is the most callous.

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Kneon Light
There are certain people on this board who clearly have absolutely no idea what respect is.

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Something you give to people you ... respect? Karol Wojtyla, the man who calls homosexuals "evil" and thinks 11-year-old girls made pregnant by rape should be forced to bring the child to term, doesn't automatically earn my respect because he's on his deathbed. We're a discussion site, not a newswire, and it'd be a pretty pointless discussion of the Pope's death if people can't be absolutely frank in their views. And frank I've been, not gratuitously insulting. Some Roman Catholics are no doubt offended by my views, but many would be offended by theirs: if either party doesn't like what they're reading, they can click elsewhere.

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by lizzieslayer
(quotes)

If that's aimed at me, you know nothing about me. And a lot people on here, can vouch for me being very respectful. My Grandpa is very ill in hospital, I'm sorry I don't feel a great deal of sympathy for a man I've never met. Ok?

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No, pretty sure that wasn't aimed at you.

Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is good... Every sperm is needed, In your neighbourhood...

*high kicking exit*

Every sperm is sacred/ Every sperm is great/ If a sperm is wasted/ God gets quite irate!

Lizzieslayer - many apologies if I upset you. It was not aimed at you in any way.

Byron - You make some good points (many of which I agree with) but I just think for the sake of Catholics on this board that when the leader of their church is laying on his deathbed it is a bit disrespectful to them to rub salt into the wounds by raising these issues at this time. I agree you have not been insulting. JTB definitely was however.

It's clear from the first post which way the thread is going, giving catholic members ample warning. Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have to read it.

Thread in part prompted by the uncritical reporting the mainstream news was treating the Pope to earlier. The Six O'Clock's News summary of the Pontiff's career would have done the Vatican's PR department proud. Some would say don't speak ill of the dead (although it comes from a Roman proverb referring to the person's relatives), but I've never believe death should treat someone to uncritical publicity. If you're going to discuss a life, do it honestly. Glossing over their sins is just as hurtful to people who've suffered at their hands as raising them is to their supporters.

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by Kneon Light
JTB definitely was however.

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Respect is earnt not automatically given. and I still stand by my comments. Did he show any respect to my grandad when he died last year.

(Edited by JtB 01/04/2005 23:27)

I feel really sorry for the Pope, and I hope his pain is ended soon either way. He may just be "one old man" but he has also been influential in some peoples lives and changed them, some for better, some for worse.

I completely disagree with the fact that the Catholic church is to blame for the rise in AIDS in African countries. I'm Protestant myself, and I disagree with what alot of the Catholic church teaches, but last year I did some mega fundraising for AIDS in Africa to send to my friends priest who is out in Africa helping people with AIDS.

The work that these people are doing, is not just "telling them not to use contraception" but helping people who are sick and dying, giving them as much dignity as they can before they die, helping families who have lost loved ones through AIDS, etc. Even though they're a branch of Christianity that has very conservative views, they're still Christians who are helping the sick and people who are in need. Also, in many countries, where they have been teaching people to be moral, and stick to one partner (because they're actually trying to stop AIDS!) and it may be a shock to people, but it has been working within certain areas, as said in the newspapers. We're also talking about people who wouldn't be able to afford food, let alone contraception, so if you teach them to stick to one partner, and also give them hope through religion, then why not.

I sound like some religious nutter, and I'm not really, and I don't agree with Catholic ways of doing things, however, in this I think they are right, and I think it's downright awful for people to put down the wonderful work these people are doing, right on the front line of AIDS, and other people can have the cheek to say that they're making it worse. People need to use someone as a scapegoat, because no one wants to be to blame for the AIDS epidemic.