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by Kneon Light
Lizzieslayer - many apologies if I upset you. It was not aimed at you in any way.

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That's ok. I just don't particuarly like it when one on here voices their opinion and gets backlash from the other members just because they don't agree with what you're saying. As it is, a free world.

My uncle just came back from Africa and saw first hand the rise in catholicism and that "god will save us from AIDS". If I ever even mentioned to my Uncle who worked with thousands of dying people, praying to God that they will survive or "he" will find a cure then he'd spend hours disagreeing and arguing with me. I however wouldn't even imagine arguing aganist him, as he has lost so many friends to AIDS because of Catholicism. And Oh, I was born Catholic (as my Uncle was too), although I don't believe in Christianity.

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by Miss Corrupt
I feel really sorry for the Pope, and I hope his pain is ended soon either way. He may just be "one old man" but he has also been influential in some peoples lives and changed them, some for better, some for worse.

I completely disagree with the fact that the Catholic church is to blame for the rise in AIDS in African countries. I'm Protestant myself, and I disagree with what alot of the Catholic church teaches, but last year I did some mega fundraising for AIDS in Africa to send to my friends priest who is out in Africa helping people with AIDS.

The work that these people are doing, is not just "telling them not to use contraception" but helping people who are sick and dying, giving them as much dignity as they can before they die, helping families who have lost loved ones through AIDS, etc. Even though they're a branch of Christianity that has very conservative views, they're still Christians who are helping the sick and people who are in need. Also, in many countries, where they have been teaching people to be moral, and stick to one partner (because they're actually trying to stop AIDS!) and it may be a shock to people, but it has been working within certain areas, as said in the newspapers. We're also talking about people who wouldn't be able to afford food, let alone contraception, so if you teach them to stick to one partner, and also give them hope through religion, then why not.

I sound like some religious nutter, and I'm not really, and I don't agree with Catholic ways of doing things, however, in this I think they are right, and I think it's downright awful for people to put down the wonderful work these people are doing, right on the front line of AIDS, and other people can have the cheek to say that they're making it worse. People need to use someone as a scapegoat, because no one wants to be to blame for the AIDS epidemic.

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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. CS Lewis

Abstience is universally recognised as the best protection against HIV/Aids. There's nothing unique in the catholic church's line, and no one's going to deny the sucess of abstinece based programmes up to a point. That's not the issue. Where the Vatican and protestant fundamentalists differ from everyone else is refusing to accept contraception as an essential backup. They value religious dogma over evidence. The Vatican spread lies about the effectiveness of condoms, inevitably leading to unprotected sex. Are you defending that? Good works don't somehow cancel it out. I've no doubt many catholics believe what they're doing is right: people can do appaling things out of good intentions.

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by JtB
(quotes)

Respect is earnt not automatically given. and I still stand by my comments. Did he show any respect to my grandad when he died last year.

(Edited by JtB 01/04/2005 23:27)

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But your original comments were not disrespectful to the pope but disrespectful and offensive to all Catholics who read this board.

With regard to Aids in Africa I agree with a lot of what has been said but I don't think that Catholisism can be blaimed for it's spread. (Although it could have done a hell of a lot more to help). There was an interesting article in the Times a few weeks ago saying that Cafod were now actively promoting Contraception in Africa against the Pope's wishes. Cost and Women not being able to insist on it were major obstacles though. I hope the new pope has the guts to change the current teaching on contraception.

So, the Pope's dying, and about time too. I'm not in anyway being disrespectful to the guy, he's been in a bad way for a very long time now and i think he's suffered enough. I personally think that someone else should have taken over the position some time ago to give the man some piece, but i know that's not their way. they have to have him try and do all this stuff right up to the end and only think about having someone else as pope after he's gone.

I'm not at all religious, maybe i was at one time, but i'm not anymore. I understand why people are, and i feel for the Catholic population at this time losing a well respected leader of their faith, but personally, i'm not bothered about that aspect of it as it doesn't affect me in anyway, i just hope he's allowed to die in piece with a little bit of dignity.

AIDS seems to be the topic of the moment on this thread so i might as well share my views. The catholic church have in no way caused AIDS in Afirica. they didn't take someone with HIV over them and force people to sleep with them. So they are not to blame for AIDS being there. Their principles have however contributed to the AIDS epidemic by spreading the word about the badness of condoms. I totally appreciate that not everyone can afford contraception, but surely there are some that can and won't be using it for this reason.

I understand that the Catholic church has principles it wishes to live by, but surely they should take a step back and look at what's happening with AIDS, maybe accept some sort of responsibility and look at ways of moving forward and, god forbid (excuse the use of language), change their ways for the good and the health of their own population.

I know it won't happen, but it's what i think...

100% agree Lil Miss.

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by Kneon Light
(quotes)
But your original comments were not disrespectful to the pope but disrespectful and offensive to all Catholics who read this board.

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If you read my post I aimed it at the organization not all Catholics.

The catholic church lives in granduer whilst people are starving, it isnt an all giving caring organiztion. True there may be decent offshoots of it but it doesnt absolve the rest.

I dont believe in it but I think if Jesus came back today he would be disgusted by what been done in his name.

If you want a religous role model pick someone like Mother Theresa, not the pope.

Meh, the world's overpopulated anyway. Maybe the deaths of the pope, the millions of aids sufferes in africa that are a direct result of the evil that is religion and Byron would all benefit the the planet?

I feel sorry for the pope, im not catholic but i still have respect for him. He is a leader of people and still brings alot of joy to alot of people.

I feel even more sorry for him because his death have been dragged out, he's gone thru things that they wouldnt normaly do to a man of his age. And he's let them because he doesnt want to leave the people that he is on this earth for.

Thats why i respect him.

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by JtB
(quotes)

If you read my post I aimed it at the organization not all Catholics.

The catholic church lives in granduer whilst people are starving, it isnt an all giving caring organiztion. True there may be decent offshoots of it but it doesnt absolve the rest.

I dont believe in it but I think if Jesus came back today he would be disgusted by what been done in his name.

If you want a religous role model pick someone like Mother Theresa, not the pope.

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But Catholics are part of the organization. Without the millions of Catholics there wouldn't be an organization. I think your comments were showing a complete lack of respect for people's feelings at this time. I agree the Catholic church isn't perfect but there are more than "decent offshoots". It does a hell of a lot of good worldwide and a lot of people seem to be able to conveniently forget this.

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by MonSTeR
Meh, the world's overpopulated anyway. Maybe the deaths of the pope, the millions of aids sufferes in africa that are a direct result of the evil that is religion and Byron would all benefit the the planet?

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LOL

EDIT: He's dead.

(Edited by lizzieslayer 02/04/2005 21:13)

Oh no, don't get me wrong, I am 100% for contraception. I do not like alot of teachings of the Catholic church, I strongly disagree with the Catholic church, I've been known to have 45 minute rants without a breath about the Catholic church. I just do not like the whole stereotype that it's Catholics faults that AIDS has risen in Africa because they're telling people not to use condoms. Condoms can fail, only having one partner cannot fail you.

I don't agree with the teachings that "God will save us from AIDS" because if you pray that God will come down from the sky and take the virus out of your body, chances are...it isn't going to happen. And when I was raising money to send to my friends priest out in Africa, this is not what they were doing. They just built a place for people with nowhere else to go, to help them go as peaceful as possible, and God will save them from AIDS in the respect that they will be happier in the next life. Even if you think that's a bunch of rubbish, I wouldn't want to deny the people just a little bit of hope before they die.

I just find it really weird that when a rock star or tv actor dies, everyone is quite sad about it, and it changes peoples lives, but when the Pope is dying, people say "he's only a man."

I think the best way to stop AIDS is to give everyone a Biology lesson on how the AIDS virus works and what it does to you. That frightened me more than most things in my life.

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by Miss Corrupt
I just do not like the whole stereotype that it's Catholics faults that AIDS has risen in Africa because they're telling people not to use condoms.
I just find it really weird that when a rock star or tv actor dies, everyone is quite sad about it, and it changes peoples lives, but when the Pope is dying, people say "he's only a man."
.

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Unfortunately it's not a stereotype, as my Uncle told me, it is actually happening. I understand about the actor/tv person dying, it is annoying but for me, I don't feel this man has done much for me. Whereas if my Grandpa dies, he has done a great deal for me and I love him to bits.

Yes, it's happeneing, where your Uncle is. But for other people who've been out who aren't Catholic and have gone and seen the work that's been happening in other places, it's been really good.

It's likely everything really. Good bits and bad bits.

[quote]by lizzieslayer
(quotes)

Unfortunately it's not a stereotype, as my Uncle told me, it is actually happening. quote]

Yes, people are dying of AIDS but it is not necessarily true that it is Catholics fault (which was the stereotype mentioned). Catholics would preach abstinence outside of marriage and monogamy within marriage AS WELL as preaching against use of contraception. Therefore if people only follow half of the advice from the Catholic church I don't see why the spread of AIDS is the catholics fault. If people followed all of the teachings the spread of AIDS would decrease dramatically.

As I have already sated I wish the Catholic church would change their position on contraception but I think it is too easy and convenent to simply blame them for the spread of AIDS.

Anyway RIP. I think he did a lot of good for the world and I know many thousand would agree.

I know it's not directly their fault but it is aiding the increase. Anyways, I'll leave this topic for everyone to post their messages of sympathy (or bereavement?). One of the two, anyways, lol.

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by Kneon Light
(quotes)

But Catholics are part of the organization. Without the millions of Catholics there wouldn't be an organization. I think your comments were showing a complete lack of respect for people's feelings at this time.

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With all due respect it aint as if the religous organisations arent easly offended.

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by JtB
(quotes)

With all due respect it aint as if the religous organisations arent easly offended.

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I think calling an organization corrupt and vile while it's leader is on his deathbed would offend most oragnizations (and members of).

As I said it astounds me the complete lack of respect for others feelings that some people have.

Being one of the people the late Pope called "Evil" I don't have a lot of respect for him. It would be hypocrisy for me to act any differently after his death than when he was alive. While it is true that this 'disrespect' may cause offence to any Catholic readers (though this presupposes that all Catholics supported John Paul II, which is not actually the case), it should also be considered that words of praise towards the deceased can cause offence to those who the late pontiff attacked or through inaction condemned.

Already mentioned has been his role in the AIDS epidemic. No, he wasn't to blame for AIDS, nor was he the sole cause of its spread. But he didn't help, and in fact actively stopped those members of the Catholic Church who wanted to pass out condoms, or teach that they should be used. Yes, there are many other reasons why AIDS has spread, in Africa and the rest of the world. But to borrow an old phrase, if you aren't part of the solution...

Also mentioned above is his stance on homosexuality. I have seen first hand the psychological and emotional damage many homosexual and bisexual Catholics have suffered. Their pain, and those who have continued to suffer from the bigoted teachings of the Catholic Church, should be laid firmly at John Paul's door.

Then there is his opposition to the ordination of women, and therefore the acceptance of gender equality. Or his flirtation with beatifying and canonising anti-Semites and nazi collaborators.

Or basically his opposition towards any form of liberal morality. Or to put it another way, his opposition to "Love Thy Neighbour".

(Edited by Jayjay 04/04/2005 15:19)

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by Byron
sceptic shock.

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Byron my dear, that is probably the single most amusing typo I've ever seen on these boards!

With respect to both yourself and Jayjay (who knows my views on these matters , I can't be as outrightly condemnatory as either of you. At the risk of someone giving me the standard "So if I think murdering you is right then that gives me carte blanche to do it?" response, he followed what he believed to be his faith, and did what he believed to be right. No, I don't agree with any of his pronouncements on contraception, for instance - not only AIDS, but a celibate bloke should tell me what to do with my body?; I have real issues with the place of women in his church. I take Jayjay's points about his beatifications - but I'm afraid what I mainly saw was him taking the message of Christ (which still reads "love thy neighbour as thyself", whatever other nastiness has accrued around it) to as much of the earth as he could get to. Surely the plaudits from other faiths reinforce this?

Boys boys, you should know that the best way to get me to disagree with you both and argue in a more extreme fashion than I am wont to do is to make blanket condemnatory statements in religious posts!

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by Miss Corrupt
I just find it really weird that when a rock star or tv actor dies, everyone is quite sad about it, and it changes peoples lives, but when the Pope is dying, people say "he's only a man."

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Not *everyone* - I don't particularly. It's sad when someone dies, and more people have heard of a famous person who dies, but I can't be "heartbroken" and cry as though they were a member of my family. There were plenty of us who didn't feel we'd lost a friends when Princess Di shuffled off this mortal coil - we just weren't as vocal about it.