I know there have been a few not so great episodes this season but we did have 'once more with feeling' and that almost makes up for the other episodes. So yep I do still love Buffy but if I'm honest with myself I am finding I'm enjoying Angel on the whole more than buffy this season. But I'm still hopeful for the rest of the buffy season.

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by Sunnydale Girl
I think maybe some people's dislike of the way the show has gone has been influenced by the way the Scooby gang have become so disjointed and the characters increasingly insular, as a group of friends being constantly close and supportive in the face of adversity is always a popular theme (see 'Friends'....).

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And of course 'Friends' is a prime example of just how pants a once-good show can get when the characters stubbornly refuse to move on and start acting their ages The nature of friendship changes as you get older - sure, the group is still there, but as an adult you have to face a lot more situations on your own, and couples tend to take over from the basic group, although they may all be a part of it. Buffy is very true to life in this.

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by The Prophet
Note that since getting physical with Buffy, Spike has replaced his customary T with a button-up shirt which can hang - or be ripped - open.

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Starting to worry about you now...

I haven't actually enjoyed Buffy much since end of Season 3 so I dont even qualify as a fan anymore really. Kelly still watches though, so I loosely follow the storyline.

S4 was just ridiculous, and due to that, I didnt watch ANY of season 5. I mean to get round to it, cos im sure there are some allright eps.

One thing that has bugged me for a bit, is that its no longer a show about vampires, its about Demons, ala Angel. Sorry but Demons dont interest me - I like vampires, and that was the primary reason I got interested in the show originally. It seems to me, that Vampires, who are essentially people without a soul, can be very interesting and complex characters indeed, whereas demons on the whole are just like stupid animals that get mown down every episode. They're not very interesting.

The high school thang - that was another key to the show as well, its such a popular theme, as proved by the popularity of so many teen-movies. So yeah, it all had to end, but perhaps too, so should have the show.

The best thing though, was the gang in those days. Xander was much funnier. Buffy still whined, but spent a lot more time just kicking arse. Giles was well..Giles. Willow was so loveable as the cute and plucky nerd who always had something adorable to say. Cordy was fantastic as the IT girl with a heart, and always had something either utterly dumb or shallow to say, while occasionally saying something very succint and clever that hit the nail on the head. Angel was just right, always adding something good to the mix.

In my opinion, as things progressed, Buffy started to whine more, Giles started to become unrealistic as a character, Willow became cool and georgeous and lost half her appeal, Xander lost his wit, and of course we lost Cordy and Angel.

The show has changed from its foundations so much that it is a completely different show, one im not really interested in watching anymore.

One last note, I do actually like Anya though - she fills a gap that cordy left, of being the one to usually put her foot in it from the way she speaks so bluntly, but often saying exactly what no one else dared to say.

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by Funky Monkey


S4 was just ridiculous, and due to that, I didnt watch ANY of season 5. I mean to get round to it, cos im sure there are some allright eps.

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I liked season4 despite the transitionary difficulties inevitable when a show changes so profoundly in its dynamic. I thought early season 5 was fantastic, later it became a bit humdrum, but I loved the gift and there were some great eps inbetween.

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by Funky Monkey
One thing that has bugged me for a bit, is that its no longer a show about vampires, its about Demons, ala Angel. Sorry but Demons dont interest me - I like vampires, and that was the primary reason I got interested in the show originally. It seems to me, that Vampires, who are essentially people without a soul, can be very interesting and complex characters indeed, whereas demons on the whole are just like stupid animals that get mown down every episode. They're not very interesting.

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I'd tend to disagree with the analysis of demons although I see your point. Buffy has always been about a multitude of supernatural bad guys, 6 seasons of nothing but vampires would definately lead the show to stagnation, especially as the vampires in Buffy aren't exactly well thought out or particularly scary - that is to say - in the slightest.

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by Funky Monkey
The high school thang - that was another key to the show as well, its such a popular theme, as proved by the popularity of so many teen-movies. So yeah, it all had to end, but perhaps too, so should have the show.

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Yeah, and then we would have missed out on some fantastic eps - good one.

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by Funky Monkey

In my opinion, as things progressed, Buffy started to whine more, Giles started to become unrealistic as a character, Willow became cool and georgeous and lost half her appeal, Xander lost his wit, and of course we lost Cordy and Angel.

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I'd call that character development and would rate it pretty essential for a show like Buffy's survival. I thought Giles became funnier and more interesting as a character. Xander may have been funny, but he was also a bit of a joke and he really needed to mature and fullfil his full potential as the heart of the scooby gang. It's easy to whist for things past, but in terms of character development I think Buffy is pretty realistic and I appreciate that.

I was discussing this with a friend and came to this conclusion:

The characters made interesting teenagers because their crises were universally recognisable.

As people grow up, they become more varied. These characters are no longer representative of everyone's experiences.

More than that, they are boring adults. They work in fast food restaurants, on building sites and in retail. They are not particularly intelligent or witty, driven or idealistic.

As a show about teenagers, it competed with Dawson's Creek, as a show about adults it is competing with the West Wing, Homicide and Oz and it looks pretty dull in comparison.

As far as Angel is concerned, I did not and have never watched that show to see a grown man changing diapers and making baby noises. If that was what I wanted to see, I'd watch different shows and the sooner they get rid of Connor the better.

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by killer
I'd call that character development and would rate it pretty essential for a show like Buffy's survival. I thought Giles became funnier and more interesting as a character. Xander may have been funny, but he was also a bit of a joke and he really needed to mature and fullfil his full potential as the heart of the scooby gang. It's easy to whist for things past, but in terms of character development I think Buffy is pretty realistic and I appreciate that.

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Nicely put, Killer

No-one *has* to watch it if they don't like it anymore. I dimly recall someone saying, adamantly, they would *never* watch Buffy again after the episode where she dies, and yet they do. Every week without fail. (Same goes for Angel too).

It appeals. It has something for everyone. And it does draw you in. Kids, grown-ups, whatever.

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by Wiggy
You even enjoy buffy any more?

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I don't even watch Buffy any more

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by Incandenza
As a show about teenagers, it competed with Dawson's Creek, as a show about adults it is competing with the West Wing, Homicide and Oz and it looks pretty dull in comparison.

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Well, I thought Sundays episode of West Wing was possibly the dullest 45 minutes of TV I've ever seen, its only saving grace being the little rant by Bartlett towards the end. I keep being told how great this show is, but as a new viewer this season, I'm not seeing it...

Anyhow, Buffy is a show about young adults, struggling to cope with the real world without the comparative cosiness of high school, which I don't believe any of the above cover. Your analysis of the characters is mostly correct, and I would agree that this season has been dull in places. However, there have also been some outstanding episodes, and believe me there are more on the way. I also doubt the next season will bear much resemblance to this one.

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As far as Angel is concerned, I did not and have never watched that show to see a grown man changing diapers and making baby noises. If that was what I wanted to see, I'd watch different shows and the sooner they get rid of Connor the better.

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All I can say is, keep watching. It does get better, much better...

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by Incandenza

As a show about teenagers, it competed with Dawson's Creek, as a show about adults it is competing with the West Wing, Homicide and Oz and it looks pretty dull in comparison.

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LOL - I think you give it too much credit here. I'm sure as much as Buffy was "Dawson's Creek" it had equal parts of "Saved by the Bell"

These days, with it's cast of characters as adults now, surely it's more akin to "Friends" or "Murder She Wrote" than to a show as dark and as serious as "Oz"

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by Incandenza
As far as Angel is concerned, I did not and have never watched that show to see a grown man changing diapers and making baby noises. If that was what I wanted to see, I'd watch different shows and the sooner they get rid of Connor the better.

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Couldn't have put it better myself. Baby Conner = Big mistake. I just can't understand what made them put a baby in the show

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by Miss Edith
I just can't understand what made them put a baby in the show

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You want to know?

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from here
IGN Sci-Fi: You gotta know the first thing I have to ask you: whose idea was it to make Darla pregnant?

Tim: That is an interesting question. The short answer is Joss. The long answer is that David Greenwalt, Joss and yours truly were walking down near the Santa Monica pier trying to figure out what the heck we were going to do. We were saying, "Boy it was so great last year when we brought Darla back in a box, andÂ…" This is going to turn into a dirty joke, it that OK?

IGN Sci-Fi: But of course.

Tim: Joss said, "Maybe we could bring Darla back in a box again! A UPS box!" And I said, "Let's bring something back in Darla's box!" And Joss stopped and saidÂ…"You know, we really can." So that's how that happened.

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(Edited by In a State of Dan 09/04/2002 16:33)

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by In a State of Dan

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I won't quote anymore than that since I can feel a 'non-family friendly' edit on its way.

That may cover the 'how' Dan but doesn't really address the 'why'?

To paraphrase Jurassic Park for the second time this week, they spent so long thinking about whether they could do it that they forgot to ask whether they should.

As an aside, re The West Wing Dan, Sunday's was not the best but the two that preceeded it were very good I thought. Hopefully having got the 'post-assassination' thing out of their system things will return to normal.

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by Incandenza
(quotes)
That may cover the 'how' Dan but doesn't really address the 'why'?

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No, it doesn't. It's a question that's impossible to answer without spoilers, because apart from a bit of rather poor addressing of various issues new parents face, it hasn't been revealed yet in the Sky episodes. But stick with it..

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by In a State of Dan
(quotes)

No, it doesn't. It's a question that's impossible to answer without spoilers, because apart from a bit of rather poor addressing of various issues new parents face, it hasn't been revealed yet in the Sky episodes. But stick with it..

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ooooooo I wanna be spolied , Dan could you mail me a link where you get your info from , or have you seen them ? or have I just not read the spolier forum enough and do you think Ive asked enough questions now ?

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by Sweet-Sange

ooooooo I wanna be spoiled

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Don't we all dear.

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by Sweet-Sange
(quotes)

ooooooo I wanna be spolied , Dan could you mail me a link where you get your info from , or have you seen them ? or have I just not read the spolier forum enough and do you think Ive asked enough questions now ?

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Everything that she said. Can I have the link too, Dan? Cheers

Thanks Dan , ooooo I have been well and truely spoiled

Oh yeah! Thanks for the link, Dan

Personally i don't think Buffy has been the same since Angel left... and given the choice between Buffy and Angel, i'd chose Angel every time. I have the last two (soon to be three) episodes of Buffy on tape, supposedly to watch later, as i'm usually either out shopping or getting kiddiewinks off to bed, so i miss it... but i haven't bothered catching up... though i tape and watch Angel at the same time (to keep me going til the DVD's come out).. When i'm watching the episodes, i do enjoy them.. but not as much as i used to.. the Spike/Buffy thing is weird to watch.. i was one of the rare ones that actually liked Riley..

I'll still perservere with it, there's still something there

This is an interesting question... its strange actually because like its been mentioned I had the same problem in S4... But it went further to the point were while I would usually watch Buffy, maybe the same ep twice or more on occasion, I was recording it all still but not really even watching it, if at all... I wasn't interested anymore, and then something weird happened and I started watching again with a passion!

It was weird because it was like I had withdrawl symptoms! Strange, but true. Anyway, since then I have watched Buffy no matter what, and while I agree that this season has not been the best, it has its reasons, to start you have to realise that Buffy seems to follow the ideals of a 'moral to the story' kind of feel. The show has the ideals of showing a problem that a 'normal' person can face, but not in what would be called a normal world.

With the return of Buffy and the loss of Giles the show has taken a sudden twist. Its been said already, Buffy and the others are going to have to grow up fast. Buffy has Dawn to take care of, a house to support and demons to kill. So she had to get a job to support the house, and while her taking care of Dawn has not yet supplied a Mother or Gaurdian figure for her, as Buffy still acts like just her Sister. The show is trying to show Buffy in the sense that she needs to learn that she has to focus on all the important things like Family and Friends, as well as her house and work and demons. Buffy is quickly finding out that life sucks and your going to just have to live with it.

As for Willow, she is learning how to go cold turkey. she dabbled in magic too far and couldn't cope with the consequences, and so she is learning how consequences hurt those around you and how it affects you in the long run, but she showed how she needed help and saw that she recieved some help. This is something I don't think Dawn is doing. Dawn needs attention, but wasn't crying out for it. Dawn seemed to be taking it out in a 'shopping and not paying' fashion. And so goes off making wishes to people she doesn't know!

Xander and Anya are learning that they have to prepare for a wedding. Xander is learning to try and keep out of it, and yet can't help but be worried about the demons. Anya sees nothing wrong in her demon guests, but now wonders if Xander has a problem with her demon past. So they have relationship issues, who doesn't sometime or another, maybe it was a smooth ride up until now, but how long will the ride last now its got bumpy! Thats their problem, and their problem to find the answer to...

Leaving Tara and Spike. Now Tara acts as the responsible one. With a level head she was there to give Buffy the support she needs with the questions and answers she was looking for. Tara's only problem was her relationship with willow did crumble, and she has no questions or answers, but is trying to deal with the time she now has without Willow. As for Spike, he has in his mind, a relationship... or he's stalking buffy really badly since she knows... its hard to tell what goes through his head. There is nothing really there except sexual frustration...

So thats my thoughts on what is going on this season, and the relavence is that while I watch the show for the action, the acting, the excellent writing and the story twists, I realise that the show isn't just about killing a demon every week, but also the life around it, and so you have to take each bit as it comes. It doesn't seem that badly done considering what they are trying to get across (if I am right in what they are trying to get across - please do post a different opinion to whats written above if you have one ), and so I am looking forward to each and every ep in the hope to find how Joss and the other writers would consider Buffy and the others would get through their lives, with their various problems, along with the odd demon.

Well thats my thought process, and I think I am happy with it! And my first post too!!

Xander <-- Listing to the Buffy Album, Again! Like the 4th time this week!